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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm sure you'll get plenty of people to agree that at least a quarter of the people on the forum are pathological, though almost everyone will swear that they aren't... we're all above average, after all

    Because of things like that I've always found the enneagram to be more multi-dimensional and hopeful than the MBTI though... you have something to work towards and something to work away from. The MBTI flat out slaps someone with a set of 4 immutable letters and people tend to identify with them to an alarming degree on here from time to time, not seeming to recognize that there are facets of their identities that can't be described by a set of four letters

    The wing thing is pretty confusing though- I've never seen anyone give a sufficient explanation as to why one's wing has to be the next door neighbor when something else could be a much better fit- all I've gotten here is "but that's just how it is!" (good job at striking out for new intellectual territories, people) and the books just ignore the topic
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Tri-type should satisfy you for that, no?

  3. #13
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Tri-type should satisfy you for that, no?
    not me... I want one of the other types from my same category in my tritype and I'm not allowed... but it's too far away to be a wing

    why all the restrictions?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm sure it can all be explained with elaborate mathematics that I wouldn't begin to understand. I'll take it on face value that it can't be done rather than have to sit through the explanation.

  5. #15
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I'm sure it can all be explained with elaborate mathematics that I wouldn't begin to understand. I'll take it on face value that it can't be done rather than have to sit through the explanation.
    I want an explanation and I LIKE math
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #16
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'm sure you'll get plenty of people to agree that at least a quarter of the people on the forum are pathological, though almost everyone will swear that they aren't... we're all above average, after all

    Because of things like that I've always found the enneagram to be more multi-dimensional and hopeful than the MBTI though... you have something to work towards and something to work away from. The MBTI flat out slaps someone with a set of 4 immutable letters and people tend to identify with them to an alarming degree on here from time to time, not seeming to recognize that there are facets of their identities that can't be described by a set of four letters

    The wing thing is pretty confusing though- I've never seen anyone give a sufficient explanation as to why one's wing has to be the next door neighbor when something else could be a much better fit- all I've gotten here is "but that's just how it is!" (good job at striking out for new intellectual territories, people) and the books just ignore the topic
    You can't have my four letters, you just can't NOOOOOO!

    Personally though MBTI was only bearable for me once I put aside all the trappings of celebratory traits associated with types and instead looked at people as people.

    Then again that was how I always looked at it. I didn't read internet descriptions or tests until after I had spent time researching this theory.

    Once people understand that an ESFP and INTJ can understand the same ideas but in a different way, then the whole concept becomes much more useful, because then it is about human beings, rather than a series of idolised traits that are better associated with fictional characters who none of us will become.

    Of course i'm saying nothing new here.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.
    This is reasonably close to the truth, but could use some slight adjustments.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.
    Well, depending on how it's done, it can be pretty absurd to claim that a type is deficient.

    If one is referring to the "deficiency" of all types, in that no type perceives/judges the world in all possible ways, well, that is acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.
    You seem to be blending the enneagram's philosophy with Jungian typology, which could be seen as erroneous.

    Imo, tho, the underlying principle is balance, and, as I've written extensively on here, balance (i.e., developing one's "shadow" [i.e., tertiary and inferior], one's "opposite personality" [5th and 6th functions], and, lastly [and most difficultly], one's trickster and demonic functions [7th and 8th functions]) is a sign of growth in Jungian typology as well as the enneagram.

    (That being said, I think, even when one has achieved such growth, one still does and ought retain a certain degree of one's primary character [both Jungian and enneagram] -- in that way there is a balance to the balancing.)

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?
    According to them: just about that, yes. (using health levels 7-9 as the measure, as Riso & Hudson do)

    And I don't know if "pathological" is the best term for the phenomenon you've described.

    The term most widely used in the enneagram literature is "neurotic".

    But I do feel the mental health of the forum is not necessarily all that high.

    That being said, I believe psychologists have recently posited that almost 30% of America has a psychological disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.
    There is a reason for it.

    Tritype allows for the other combinations, tho (mostly).

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that the three instinctual variants that the Enneagram accounts for are exhaustive, I am open to the possibility that there could be many more and there is another variant that describes my fundamental cognitive tendencies with greater precision than the social does.
    Any ideas as to what these variants would be?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

    That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition?
    I would say that religious adherence to MBTI is more stifling to a person's self-concept than their ability to access all facets of their personality. If some facet doesn't obviously fit into their understanding of their functions and preferences, they can simply reword/redefine until their dissonance is effectively relieved. You can make almost any characteristic sound like Ne or Fi, for example; it's just a matter of reworking the language...the amorphousness that personality theory is so often criticized for really lends itself to confused MBTI "fundamentalists." I wouldn't say that it's "profoundly self-destructive," but it can clearly stilt growth and understanding. A mind so fixated on categorizations may become blind to important nuances in others and self, and to potential deficiencies of the system

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?
    I find it hard to believe that a significant percentage of the human population hasn't always been pathological. So, absolutely. (I'm assuming that by pathological you mean something more along the lines of "far from peak potential, unhealthy" and not "battling mental illness." Though it goes without saying that many of the users on this forum are dealing with some degree of anxiety and/or depression.)

    sorry for the possibly incoherent rambling

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    not me... I want one of the other types from my same category in my tritype and I'm not allowed... but it's too far away to be a wing

    why all the restrictions?
    Because it is trying to provide a more comprehensive view of how we operate. As I mentioned, everyone uses head, heart, and gut to some degree. As a 5, for example, my core type is a head type. I may not like operating in heart mode and may even prefer to avoid it, when I do operate that way, is it more like type 2, 3, or 4? Similarly for gut. This is the information tritype provides.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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