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  1. #61
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Are you suggesting that your limited experience (compared to the copious number of same-sex relationships out there) somehow trumps their positive experiences?

    To me, that is the definition of "bias." You are not required to enjoy a same-sex union or benefit from it, you must do what is best for yourself; but you can't simply write off people who have a different experience than you have had.

    I think this is a very important point, even though what I say next is a bit of a tangent from the OP (and nothing to do with your response to the OP )

    It's important because we are actually very very bad at predicting other people's actions through projection. Placing ourselves in other people shoes is akin to putting a cat's mind in a dog's body. We develop our own world based on our own experiences, adapting to the events of our lives to create coping mechanisms. Some people like certain body shapes because they remind us of our (secure, comfortable, etc.) parents, while others may reject it outright, or based in on their first love, or trauma, or... anything. The best examples of this are sexual fetishes - virtually everyone has some because the shift during puberty is rapid and "violent", meaning the onset is prone to having some wiring crossed. The point of this is that when we talk about "rules" for couples, you can't really create a model that fits people, only abstractions of them. Even the most abstracted generalizations, like "relationships should make the participants happy" begins to fall apart in the majority of the world's cultures.

    The only answer to a "formula" of what works is descriptive. How do you have a successful relationship? Be happy. How? Be happy. Seriously. Just. Be. Happy. I can't tell anyone else (... well I can, because I like doing it (1)) how to fulfill their insecurities, needs, wants, desires and fantasies. I mean, really, how can you? I can't really understand being attracted to another male; I don't reject the concept, but this is a good example of me being unable to project myself into another person's shoes. My baggage simply doesn't transfer... but it's more obvious because of the difference in preferences in sexual attraction. I can't depend on projecting myself into anyone, and when I think someone else is "enough like me" to project and predict, all I'm doing is ignoring the bigger differences.

    There is an alternative to this: observation. People's prediction of others' actions goes up dramatically when we observe and extrapolate and goes down when we ask ourselves "what would we do". And because I feel bad about not in some way making this about the topic in the thread, these are the reasons why I would reject the OP's position wholesale.

    ---
    (1) I say all this, but there are ways of generalizing what one should do. Looking for equal value mates, or high/low trade offs on what you each want, etc. But this is still mostly description, no different than a "just be happy", except a little bit less off the cuff.

  2. #62
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this again tonight. I don't know that it can necessarily be computed out so easily, but perhaps maybe it's not unreasonable to establish some degrees of parameters to help identify preferences. But that relies on your own person more than your personality classification, so you kind of have to go from the nebulous to the definite, instead of from definite to definite, which is simpler. For instance:

    MBTI - J - I generally prefer partners who are Js because they naturally bring structure and closure into my world, which I prefer but am poor at consistently maintaining. This is of moderate importance. Instincts - Sp - I generally prefer partners who have Sp in their stacking because as my weakest area, I always struggle with Sp issues and really appreciate someone who has this as their natural strength. This is of mild importance. Enneagram - I tend to get along most harmoniously with 2s, 3s, 5s, and 9s. I am so reactive as a 6 and I really need to have a partner who is more absorbing or deflecting of my reaction than one who is aggressive or reactive in turn. This is of high importance. Gender - I am bisexual, leaning slightly more towards males. This is of virtually zero importance. So I end up with:

    Desired Traits by Importance
    1. Ability to deflect or absorb my reactions
    2. Natural maintenance of external order in life
    3. Attention to the self-preservational sphere

    I feel like it's pretty safe for me to say that I would need to have my partner have all of these traits to a certain extent for us to have a highly functioning relationship. That said, there are also other traits not really addressed by any of these personality systems that come first and foremost. For example:

    Desired Traits by Importance II
    1. Warmth and familial protection; nurturing stability
    2. Liberal social values
    3. Desire to improve the lives of others

    And those things are of greater priority than the first list. The problem is I think it's kind of against the inherent nature of love to quantify, because our quantifications are limited by what our rational minds understand and are able to process, and love runs deeper and is more encompassing than our rational minds alone.

  3. #63
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    its about the libido, females also biologically have _higher_ self communication abilities than males, leaveng males feeling too dry for me.
    Interesting........ I'm just not so sure how far you could universalize this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So you also agree that his posts seem Ni dom as hell?
    Fixed it for ya

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Se wouldn't abstract people into models or come to conclusions with thought experiments. Se experiences (and often experiences things anew).
    Se wouldn't, but since when does an Ni dom let Se call the shots?

  4. #64
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Are you sure that you are an INFJ, because your posts seem INTP as hell?
    oh thank you! =3 its nice to hear others still think im an intellectual when ive lost my faith in my intelligence.
    And yes, im 100% infj.

    Sometimes i hope 5w6 is my secondary, but then i think im kinda like 7w6 by how seriously i take enjoyment, to the point im even limiting what im allowed to do with my mind in fear of not preserving my memories, how stupid to left them dust and
    leave myself with very narrow options.

    Thats actually mind boggling. Maybe im an intp and the enfp who typed me is wrong, but what would then explain my intrusive ability to invade peoples heads with empathy? I need to re-read my socionics dynamics in me being an intp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks for your response and investing a little time to clarify your ideas.



    Say "physical brain differences." It clarifies what you mean.



    I try to not have bias either, from a very early age. Unfortunately, we are all biased; and basing a theory solely on our own experience without accepting varied feedback from others leaves us more biased than not.


    There is differentiation that occurs in utero around 6-8 weeks (based on hormone production being triggered), yes, and it impacts brain development, but it is not a binary wash. IOW, the outcome is not 100% male extreme / 100% female extreme. Among individuals, the hormones differ in quantity, length of effect, individual response to the hormones, etc. So what you get is hopefully a baby that appears male or female and can reproduce adequately, but aside from that very very broad binary, you get lots of variations / spectrum of gender impact across the population.

    Which means that while some women might be able to bear children just fine, they might in personality be more "masculine" than some males who can produce sperm and impregnate women. And vice versa.

    So it is far more complicated than you realize, and there are far more "valid" combinations that can work for people regardless of where their personalities can fall across the gendered spectrum.

    In addition, the hormonal wash occuring during a particular window of time can influence a baby's orientation later in life. Glad you brought up the "hormone" thing; it's not "just a choice."

    Finally, in any relationship, as you suggest, I think people try to couple with someone who brings any missing qualities to the relationship. However, I don't think blatant physical gender delineates those collections of qualities. Husbands and wives in an other-sexed union can contribute both masculine and feminine qualities to the overall relationship -- the husband for example, might be more nurturing, and the wife might be more assertive and take charge. It's all based on their personalities. The same thing occurs in same-sex unions -- partners can contribute both masculine and feminine qualities they possess, to the union, to make it stronger.

    You're just looking at genitalia, not at people. I think the purpose you describe can be fulfilled just fine regardless of gender, depending on the individual personalities of the people involved.



    Lol. Did you really just say, "The fact that you disagree with me means you're wrong. I hope you one day come around and learn what I know and become as enlightened as I am"?



    It's great to set goals for yourself. You can do it! I'll cheer you on.



    Sure. I'll still be here when you're ready to move forward.
    "
    Well, for my input: I would personally avoid the word "soul." If you are talking about "brain," then use the word "brain." Most people define "soul" differently (in the spiritual sense), and there is no quantifiable definition of the word "soul."
    "

    i used to think so too, until i heard entps use it and i caught the meaning

    "
    To me, that is the definition of "bias." You are not required to enjoy a same-sex union or benefit from it, you must do what is best for yourself; but you can't simply write off people who have a different experience than you have had.
    "

    i have observed same gender relationships dont offer the psychological growth which female male pairing has. And i personally wish to grow.

    "
    Lol. Did you really just say, "They tell me they are happy, but I don't think they should be because it doesn't make sense to me, so they musn't be"?
    "
    its an illusion of happiness without ever realizing what true happiness is.

    Btw, i enjoy your parables, they are entertaining =)
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  5. #65
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Se wouldn't, but since when does an Ni dom let Se call the shots?
    I don't understand. Who's the Ni dom you're referring to?

  6. #66
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't understand. Who's the Ni dom you're referring to?
    The thread starter specifically, since that's who it seemed like you and The Great One were talking about, but even if not my point still stands that just because someone "has Se" doesn't mean it will have the same development no matter what position it is in.

    (I kinda get what you were saying now..... that the OP is INTP not ISTP because of the thought experiment thing, that could be valid assuming we're sure we're working with an ITP in the first place, otherwise it's simpler to assume N-dom and work from there)

  7. #67
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    @Jennifer

    "Can you explain what "soul level" is? That is not a self-obvious term, so it's not clear what you mean."

    As in physical brain difference. And thus dictating your very "soul".

    "Satisfying results for whom? You?"

    For everyone, my intent is to have no bias so i can see clearly what truly is the most satisfying rather than chasing illusions like majority of us mortals.

    "This isn't making sense either. What is the soul level flaw you're referring to? You dismissed a same-sex relationship for yourself, okay, so I get that much."

    Same gender relationship appeal is entirely in imagination, theres nothing that makes it different for any better, except, theres difference which makes it worse for everyone. And this is a truth of our specie. And to be clear, i do find the idea fascinating, only im dissatisfied with reality not living up to the imagination.

    Say, when males reach 8 weeks in their mothers womb, nature makes us mentally handicapped and thats the male female brain level difference im talking of. Its designed so each compensates the other, thus our nature isnt allowed to function properly if we mate with same gender.

    "What relationships? Failed relationships? Those relationships haven't failed yet, so obviously they think the relationship can meet their needs and learn later it won't. So in the short-term or on the surface, it's obvious that the relationship meets a need in them... even if that need ends up being false or less important than another deeper need."

    just cause people think its a good idea doesnt make it one. One example: AAAA + ABBA relationships are favoured by many, but as i observe this sexual relationship represent more like friendship than real mates, and these always fail in the end cause they werent made for each other.

    "They take what seems best to them at the time. That is what we ALL do, as none of us know if what we current think is right is actually wrong and we're just ignorant of what is better."

    or you could study and become aware like me. Ive had enough mistakes due ignorance, ill accept no more of that.

    You know, thats the fascinating thing about life, its possible to learn from the failings of _others_ too. You have only one life, and i suggest to not spend it failing.
    This soul level stuff is really uninformed in my opinion. I personally am an unemotional (I suppose you would say mental handicapped female) does this mean my only recourse is to be a lesbian even if I have no physical attraction to women? My thought is that the idea of a relationship where one person makes up for the emotional detachment of the other is stupid. I have know a heterosexual couple who are both very emotionally intune. I would never want to be with either of them because in my opinion they give to much weight to feelings. Neither of them would want to be with me because I dismiss their feelings. The male of the couple most on the "soul" level of all of us.

    I think you have a very simplistic idea of the genders.

  8. #68
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I keep reading soul level as "thetan level". Probably a good sign to stay away from the thread.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    This soul level stuff is really uninformed in my opinion. I personally am an unemotional (I suppose you would say mental handicapped female) does this mean my only recourse is to be a lesbian even if I have no physical attraction to women? My thought is that the idea of a relationship where one person makes up for the emotional detachment of the other is stupid. I have know a heterosexual couple who are both very emotionally intune. I would never want to be with either of them because in my opinion they give to much weight to feelings. Neither of them would want to be with me because I dismiss their feelings. The male of the couple most on the "soul" level of all of us.

    I think you have a very simplistic idea of the genders.
    the parts of brains females have that males lack isnt spefically only something which strengthens feelings, but self communication abilities in general and we just happen to have a term which coins _everything_ related to that, called soul.

    I think its you whose trying to simplify this, by assuming it means just emotional detachment.

    What i think is the biggest difference is males having lower libido, thus less emotionally active brains. And it tends to seem neurotic in comparison to femmes.

    And even as emotionally detached you think intp femmes are, i catch a low but strong connection to static feelings in fem intps. Males just simply lack it, even if feeler dominant. Only have it at their very best. Same goes to me, a feeler secondary male. Sure the place in order of function the feeling is is all about its _complexity_, but the quantity even if low in complexity is easily higher in all females than that of males avarage emotional health state.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I keep reading soul level as "thetan level". Probably a good sign to stay away from the thread.
    Probably. It's clear we're just supposed to agree with what is being said, and not actually challenge anything.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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