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  1. #1
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Default Te and Fe are always 'right'

    "When people disagreed with him he urged them to be objective."
    ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

    I think there's a rather interesting POV attached to being Te or Fe (Je) inferior. We constitute (according to which data source you rely upon for such figures) upon approximately 20% or so of the population.

    (As quick reference, the types that are Je inferior are ISTP, INTP, ISFP and INFP.)


    Purpose of this thread: to explore the concept of being Je last.

    Goals of this thread: to accumulate enough data or stories or anecdotes in order to expand my handy shorthand of "Te and Fe are always 'right'." To see if there are commonalities / patterns in this data.

    Who is welcome to interact: all types, under the proviso that if you're Je dom, aux or even tert you are not here to say why you think anything in here is not 'properly' understood by any of the Je last types.

    Questions to Consider:

    How does being Je last impact your life?
    How does it manifest in your personal relationships?
    How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?
    How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?
    How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?
    What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen?
    Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?

    And anything else of interest that you wish to share. Venting is permitted. Theorizing is permitted.

    I'll share some of my own thoughts once things get rolling ... don't want to influence the direction too much.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    "How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?
    Judged!

    How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?
    Chilled out, but like nothing will get done.

  3. #3
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Purpose of this thread: to explore the concept of being Je last.

    Goals of this thread: to accumulate enough data or stories or anecdotes in order to expand my handy shorthand of "Te and Fe are always 'right'." To see if there are commonalities / patterns in this data.
    Hmmm...so I answered the questions without reading them through first, which was a mistake, but I may as well leave it even though my answers are meaningless.


    I don't really find that Te and Fe primary users (ExxJs) or even aux users (IxxJs) think they're always right, as a whole. They often come across that way due to their communication style (less qualifying words, etc) but they are as open to changing their opinions as P types - which is to say, not a whole hell of a lot.
    -end of thread-

  4. #4
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Hmmm...so I answered the questions without reading them through first, which was a mistake, but I may as well leave it even though my answers are meaningless.
    I am looking for info, not necessarily something that supports what it looks like I am saying.

    This thread might turn out to be a giant fail too, because I am not especially good at getting a feeling across in words and I do not even fully 'know' if the words convey anything about what I am trying to say.

    So, your thoughts are highly relevant. I just want to see where this goes, if anywhere.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I don't really find that Te and Fe primary users (ExxJs) or even aux users (IxxJs) think they're always right, as a whole. They often come across that way due to their communication style (less qualifying words, etc) but they are as open to changing their opinions as P types - which is to say, not a whole hell of a lot.
    I'll respond to the OP later, but yeah, once I got used to their style of interaction, I found that even with a strong front, the Te/Fe primary is actually open to changing direction if you appeal to their favored form of reasoning. I didn't realize this when young and used to be intimidated.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure if I've answered this correctly as my brain is in dufus bubble mode at the moment but here goes. If I've given useless answers then just advise and I'll do it again.

    How does being Je last impact your life? It has influenced my life in more ways than I can determine. In my environment there has always been a prescence of Te in my entire life- from pre school classroom tables of yesteryear to supermarket shelves of today. I have always found myself lacking and that there is something in my environment I am repulsed by even though it is causing me detriment to do so.

    How does it manifest in your personal relationships?Not so much outside of my mini-ESTJ monster rants and the occasional time where I need to arrange to be somewhere at a certain time which involves making sure I can get from point A to point B etc. My personal relationships are often governed solely by FiNe with Si thrown in for nostalgia purposes.

    How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?Negatively. As mentioned in point 1, there has been a component in my environment which prizes Te. Since going out to work at age 19, I've found myself lacking in certain key areas where someone with a stronger T could excel. The sense of uneasiness inferior Te causes affects my aspirations for career advancement for it knows that the role will no doubt rely on increasing amounts of it. Too much and I feel like I'm dying inside. It causes a dilemma where I find myself hoping that one day it will reach a point where I can find comfort in it.

    How do you feel interacting with Je firsts? Steamrolled, especially when I cannot create a counter-argument to explain myself or assert my position in the moment. Usually leads to resentment or shame if I'm being verbally asskicked.

    How do you feel interacting with Je lasts? That depends, usually I see myself interacting with a Ji-first rather than Je-last. In the past however I have looked down on other Fi-doms and feel bugged when I wonder whether I am the same (it hasn't occurred for any IFPs here!

    What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen? They clarify only the situation they know and what they want from it and you. There is no smokescreen so much, if there is any then it's generated by my perception on wondering whether they can see beyond the rigid limitations their Je-dominance would cause.

    Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?My mother is an SFJ (I assume ESFJ) and whilst she is a good mother, quite nurturing and caring she has caused me misery in the past. Since discovering MBTI I have also taken a cynical view of her "selflessness" as mere programming which seeks to preserve itself by ensuring its environment is happy. Her logic is worse than my own as is her attention seeking (in her case it involves making sarcastic remarks about how lazy everyone is and that "she does a days work before we even get up" and created an environment of forced humility which ended up fuelling feelings that I am undeserving of certain things and made me feel shame for my arrogance and self-absorption. These days I do not stand for it and have "unlearnt" what I learned more or less. However I admit that it could have been worse had she been an ESTJ instead.

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    How does being Je last impact your life?

    Frustrating. Fe mode used to be painful for me. I just thought the rules were stupid. They were also domineering -- "so and so will like it if you do this, so you have to do it; we have to have this trip/celebration, we've had it every years; you might hurt someone's feelings if you say something that direct, you should say something in a nicer way." I do not much like conflict, but at the same time I feel like people need to take responsibility for themselves and their own responses to some degree (either figuring out what was meant and/or exerting self-control), and change and adaptability is necessary in life, and sometimes you need to change the system when it is outdated. So I did eventually learn behaviors associated with "good Fe style" and understand their purpose, but at the same time I am not beholden to them.

    The Te thing just drives me nuts -- it is NOT intuitive or easy for me. I am very proud of times in my life where I managed to get into a groove, work for a prolonged period toward a goal, and reach that goal... but I honestly also feel like exhausted/damaged me in the process. Typically once I crash after such a spurt, I am well out of commission for a long period of time.

    How does it manifest in your personal relationships?

    With Fe stuff, I'm actually decently polite/considerate. I'm definitely aware of the other person's potential feelings and responses, and I try to tailor my response in a least-offensive way possible... unless of course part of my point is to push their buttons and see what they do with it (as sometimes that forces people to confront issues they might otherwise avoid). I even like the feeling of being part of community now, and am willing to do what it takes to make things work relationally.

    With Te stuff, though... well, I procrastinate and ruminate obsessively, without actually feeling much need to do anything. In fact, only the desire to accomplish things so as to provide further opportunity for me to ruminate on what I love is what forces me to actually DO things. So I force myself into Te mode out of sheer force of will, to do something that must be done. I'm not really one for making decisions, especially for someone else, in a relationship. I like to get feedback and discuss things first to see if a decision arrives naturally; and I feel imposed on when someone decides something for me without even asking me first.

    How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?

    Meanwhile, I like to connect with people and have considered a transition to some kind of therapeutic career or psychology-related. I've tended to apply my thinking skills to issues involving people and culture.

    Originally, though, I couldn't decide what I wanted to do with my life, so I drifted into my current career. I make a decent living but I'm not necessarily happy. I didn't really take charge.

    How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?

    I used to feel very intimidated and actively avoided them (both types). I adjusted to the Fe types first and realized they were warmer and more flexible than expected (the EFJs). The ETJs took me longer to be around, they felt like bulls in china shops to me, out to dominate me and force me to do what they wanted. But once I began to engage, I realized there were opportunities in the dialogue that I had priorly not noticed. They were open to change, if I justified my position.

    How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?

    well, there's a freedom in the dialogue at least. I just feel like not much happens, though, except maybe with the INFPs. I can't say I connect easily to ISTP because we have different sensibilities, they are much more rooted in practical concerns and seem to see intuitive meanderings as suspect or at best a waste of energy. ISFPs are fine, until we clash over values (T vs F) or I need them to actually stick to a schedule / get something done. the INFPs have a similar working style and we Ne-play together, so it's a very cheery and mutually reciprocal relationship.

    What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen?

    The Je firsts seem to get things done. However, I wouldn't say they necessarily have clarity; the need to get closure tends to be more important than exploring things at length to make sure the answer takes everything into consideration. I think Je aux are lower-key and more thoughtful about their choices of action, even if they want closure and also can sometimes not be as flexible (since they are always catering to Pi). They take more time in decisions.

    Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?

    Mom is an ISFJ Je aux. Dad is an ESTP Se dom. My dad was far more annoying to deal with beacuse he would always impose himself on the process, he was not open to any reasoning but his. My mother was very very open to comments and more just made it her goal to be kind to people, and take care of the people she loved.

    Still, one thing neither was good at was getting tasks done. My mom kept the family alive but was horrible at long-range tasks and planning. My dad never accomplished much at all because of his drinking abuses. My sister and I had no real modeling of what it meant to develop a plan/schedule long-term, get all the stuff together, then implement it and reach the goal and closure. It is something I have had to develop as an adult, on my own, out of necessity.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
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    Despite what I said above, the small number of ENTJ's and ENFJ's which I met in my life, have in 2 cases been at the time some great company and we've bounced off each other really well, with them bringing out the best in me, and me giving them good solid analysis and information to back up their actions.

    Basically, in those two cases, started off as business relationships, and easily became friendships. what was key though, is that we shared the same loyalty and vision. If not, we would not have got on.

    Also my mother is ENFJ but that's a different story.

  9. #9
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    My Ti doesn't think this categorization of Te and Fe being always 'right' is universally true- though I can see how it could be a trap some fall into.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  10. #10
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Maybe I just avoid this enough for it not be much of a problem. The only thing that comes to mind is refusing some apparent "obligation" or not sending a holiday card, and someone says it's not "right". Someone invited me to some event recently and it was RSVP.. I barely knew who the people were and didn't care to go, and I was told it wasn't "right" that I didn't at least send a reply and they lectured me on what rsvp was. Maybe that's some high level Fe etiquette I haven't adapted to.

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