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  1. #21
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I reckon feelings exist for a reason. I think of it as the whole of your thoughts in a brush stroke. I don't see a problem with following what they tell you, because as I am sure you are aware, people who compartmentalize their thoughts have equal opportunity to be wrong.


    I don't think it's much a problem. Until they start telling you to kill someone
    True. I guess maybe what I am getting at is the feelings/emotions can be a form of compartmentalization being that they can act as the judge and jury and lawyers in a court of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Good topic and it's similar, although much less vitriolic, than the one I made about the point of feeling.

    Honestly the intellectualisation of emotional content frightens me, because I adhere to it so strongly and i'm aware I do. However despite this there are times when I cannot stop the immediate reaction of this emotional content.

    What's more even the positive emotions are frightening, after all what happens when they stop? It's like a drug; when i'm content I want the feeling to last forever and it is all the more bitter for me when it doesn't. So ive tried to prosper in spite of this, going against the emotions lest I fall into depression.

    So far this appears to be a good move and has helped me move out of tragic cycles of emotional states that are of no use to me or those around me.
    Interesting anecdote, thank you for sharing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i think its a juggling act.

    the way i see it, at various points in our early lives, we have encountered stressful situations of emotional dissonance and cognitive dissonance, which can conflict quite easily, and somehow, our brains have decided that one is more stressful and unbearable then the other, determining whether we'll be Feelers or Thinkers, and orienting our function order in order to better cope with the respective stress.

    the reality is, we need to cope with both.
    Hmm, I suppose then I am questioning my early decision making processes based on decades of evidence.

  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I wouldn't chalk up impulsive job-quitting to F.. I've done it many times. A lot of the forecasting and preparation may very well be Ni or Si. TPs still inhabit the moment like FPs. The logic comes into play in on the fly manuevering. But they can lose their grounding as well, find themselves on their asses, realizing they're not as clever as they think. At least STPs don't think about the future enough. Not sure I could say the same for NTP, but I think they share a lot in common.
    I attribute it primarily to emotion and allowing it to dictate one's choice in the moment, which is not the same as Feeling in the functional sense. It shows an absence of T, but in many cases an absence of F as well. Some deliberate and rational process is necessary to short-circuit kneejerk reactions that are unproductive, or at least to vet them sufficiently to establish they are sound, or at least harmless. That process could be T or F, or at best a combination of both.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #23
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    As a "T" - I was emotionally under-developed until only a few years ago (aka, the tender age of 35).
    I did not let my feelings rule my life, not at all.
    And trust me, that course is completely screwed up to navigate also.
    Try solving matters of the heart by building a quantitative decision model in MS Excel - yeah, a really bad idea, don't do it.
    Hmm, maybe this is my problem then. Trying to solve matters of the brain with my heart. I rely so much on instinct and intuition and emotion to make major decisions or how I guide my life... I don't really know another way per se, or if I should try for another way or if I should modify my current way.

    But using Excel for anything other than budgets... seems like a bad plan.

    You bring up an interesting point!
    There are things I have VERY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT, and those things are in line with my CORE VALUES.

    So, to me, "Feelings" = ephemeral (potentially) - or even more simply "physiological feedback."
    Whereas "Core Values", "Beliefs", and "Principles" are things that have solidified (and in my case for damn good reason) themselves into me over long periods of time.
    This is a good distinction. Maybe that is where I have to draw my line in the sand... around the things that I value the most and guide me the most... and then try to be more balanced? is that the word? In my approach for other things.

    You don't have to question the (a) deep essence of yourself, or (b) your sanity.
    I offer a third option.
    Instead, consider questioning (c) how you felt based on what you knew about a given event at the time your feelings registered about it.

    For instance, few will argue with the concept of "allowing one's self to become wiser as time moves on, and our knowledge and experience grows."
    So, is it not also appropriate to consider "allowing yourself to feel differntly about things than you did in the past, based on what you've learned since those feelings were formed?"
    What a beautifully Ni-Se way of putting things.

    It's not a problem unless this phenomena is somehow interfering with your ability to live a normal & productive life, IMHO.
    It would be an interesting thing to keep tabs on over time for the sake of learning about yourself though.
    Why not?
    I did so with my feelings years ago, and it did a damn large bit of good in developing them in a short stretch of time.
    See, this is my concern and why I Brought the topic up to begin with. I question myself and my ability to make important decisions in my life being that that is exactly what I am trying to do... and yet I have allowed myself to become distracted by diversions that don't further these goals. Maybe this is a Pe issue, being that I am not a J.

    Interesting advice as always my dear, Alex. Muchas gracias, mi hermano.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I attribute it primarily to emotion and allowing it to dictate one's choice in the moment, which is not the same as Feeling in the functional sense. It shows an absence of T, but in many cases an absence of F as well. Some deliberate and rational process is necessary to short-circuit kneejerk reactions that are unproductive, or at least to vet them sufficiently to establish they are sound, or at least harmless. That process could be T or F, or at best a combination of both.
    Rational process is still different between Te and Ti. Ti isn't so concerned about process, but result. Some have a tendency to "rig" and create makeshift processes, things that they think will gain them leverage in the moment. Situational rationalizing. Not Rationality sprung from a desire to get everything right, in some kind of farsighted or "objective" sense. The TJ is the one who is more fixated with masterminding, creating reliable plans, even things like taking time to plan simple trips in their cars to be more efficient. The underlying process in how the two types might think about quitting a job would illustrate some big differences. There are plenty of STPs who would take a gamble, think they could get the best of everyone without being responsible about it. It's almost a rush for some to win in unexpected ways. But often, they don't. Visit your local prison for examples. Plenty of T idiots there

  5. #25
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is happy and happy, with the distinction based on which time scale one is considering. Someone with a stressful job who has had a particularly bad day may feel that quitting will make them happy. They will have the satisfaction of telling the boss what they really think of the job, and the relief of knowing they will never have to return to that negative environment again. Having no job, however, may quite well bring more unhappiness in the longer term. A thinking-based decision involves more planning and premeditation: e.g. tolerating the unpleasant job while networking to find a better one, and leaving only after that future is secured. While the logic here is clear, the feeling function is present as well, since one is weighing competing personal values. In fact, this is a good example of the two working together. The first option (quit precipitously), by contrast, overrelies not so much on feeling as a function, but rather on emotion as an input to the process. An important decision based on emotion is likely to be less sound in the long term, but both thinking and feeling as functions can be used to resist the pull of the immediate emotion in favor of something more lasting.
    That's true, and even though I am thought of as a feeler, I have never been known to do something impulsive like the former. Another example of how the two need to work together; but do you experience decisions you make using primarily the Thinking function (being INTJ) where there is an equally valid Feeling option or process? Obviously you must, or else the choice of making decisions based on Thinking would be meaningless. What would the difference be in your experience?

  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Rational process is still different between Te and Ti. Ti isn't so concerned about process, but result. Some have a tendency to "rig" and create makeshift processes, things that they think will gain them leverage in the moment. Situational rationalizing. Not Rationality sprung from a desire to get everything right, in some kind of farsighted or "objective" sense. The TJ is the one who is more fixated with masterminding, creating reliable plans, even things like taking time to plan simple trips in their cars to be more efficient. The underlying process in how the two types might think about quitting a job would illustrate some big differences. There are plenty of STPs who would take a gamble, think they could get the best of everyone without being responsible about it. It's almost a rush for some to win in unexpected ways. But often, they don't. Visit your local prison for examples. Plenty of T idiots there
    I won't disagree with the highlighted. The rush that comes from such impulsive behavior, however, shows that these idiots are not engaging much of any rational process, be it F or T, but are allowing themselves to be ruled by their emotions in the moment. Having T in one's type hardly inures one to such (mis)behavior. Also, IME it is Te that is concerned with results and outcomes, and Ti with the internal consistency and perfection of the process. Part of why NTPs generate far more elaborate and worthwhile schemes than they ever implement, and why NTJs often consider the perfect the enemy of the good. (Now get us together - and there is almost nothing we cannot do.)

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That's true, and even though I am thought of as a feeler, I have never been known to do something impulsive like the former. Another example of how the two need to work together; but do you experience decisions you make using primarily the Thinking function (being INTJ) where there is an equally valid Feeling option or process? Obviously you must, or else the choice of making decisions based on Thinking would be meaningless. What would the difference be in your experience?
    In considering your comments, I realize I don't think of options in terms of thinking or feeling, just sound/unsound, effective/ineffective, or even feasible/unfeasible. Of course, having strong Te-aux, that is my primary yardstick in making these assessments. I actually make very few decisions using a process driven primarily by Te, though.

    My decisions are usually Ni-based, in that after absorbing a certain amount of information about the situation (often less than I should), I simply "see" what appears to be the best option. It is at this point that I engage Te to analyze this perception. A large part of this analysis is considering pros and cons, costs and benefits of the indicated option. This is where Fi comes in, since in determining whether a possible benefit is worth the cost, I must engage my values - what is important to me, and what lines I will not cross in order to get something. Sometimes I realize I have conflicting values or priorities, at which point I engage Te again to determine the root of the inconsistency, then revisit the analysis.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #27
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In considering your comments, I realize I don't think of options in terms of thinking or feeling, just sound/unsound, effective/ineffective, or even feasible/unfeasible. Of course, having strong Te-aux, that is my primary yardstick in making these assessments. I actually make very few decisions using a process driven primarily by Te, though.

    My decisions are usually Ni-based, in that after absorbing a certain amount of information about the situation (often less than I should), I simply "see" what appears to be the best option. It is at this point that I engage Te to analyze this perception. A large part of this analysis is considering pros and cons, costs and benefits of the indicated option. This is where Fi comes in, since in determining whether a possible benefit is worth the cost, I must engage my values - what is important to me, and what lines I will not cross in order to get something. Sometimes I realize I have conflicting values or priorities, at which point I engage Te again to determine the root of the inconsistency, then revisit the analysis.
    Interesting, this is exactly how I've described my decision making process. (But if I think I use Fe I couldn't be INTJ, so...meh who knows once again.)

    This indicates decisions being made by the dominant process, going down the line of functions in a hierarchical order; unfortunately it doesn't give me a method of accurately answering questions on a test.

  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Interesting, this is exactly how I've described my decision making process. (But if I think I use Fe I couldn't be INTJ, so...meh who knows once again.)

    This indicates decisions being made by the dominant process, going down the line of functions in a hierarchical order; unfortunately it doesn't give me a method of accurately answering questions on a test.
    As an INFJ, you would follow a similar process, checking your intuitions first with Fe, then engaging Ti (perhaps to see whether the values applied by Fe are consistent? Not sure as this function is not in my higher preferences). As for tests, my method often works there, too. What seems to be a correct answer (or best way to organize an essay) comes to me, then I validate and modify it with Te. I usually needn't engage much Fi on tests, though.

    (FWIW, I seriously doubt you are an INTJ, and always have.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    But using Excel for anything other than budgets... seems like a bad plan.
    Excel is for business weenies. One needs more sophisticated software for real calculations.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #29
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I won't disagree with the highlighted. The rush that comes from such impulsive behavior, however, shows that these idiots are not engaging much of any rational process, be it F or T, but are allowing themselves to be ruled by their emotions in the moment.


    I would chalk up a lot of the "in the moment" stuff to Se actually. The thrill of action, performance, the thrill of experiencing the pieces fall together in place, in real time. That puts a smile on any SP's face (in the same way that the thrill of discovery would for Ne). It's not emotion in the F sense though. It's something visceral.

    Coupled with Ti specifically, it's a mix of the above and a joy one gets from seeing one's subjective theory/idea/scheme validated in the real world. That you bested traditional wisdom or the obvious. That you had a clever workaround of the "facts". This may have an emotional element, but it's still not F. It's just validation that you, at least for a moment, have a better understanding of the world than others. And it could be in areas that are completely innocent (like sports), but also something more devious, like the thrill of a theft. What makes some idiots isn't emotion, but when they pit their theory against indisputable facts or creating a workaround without knowing a "system" well enough, and thinking they'll be rewarded for risk alone. But either way, STPs will take risks. You can put them in the same box as TJs, thinking things through the way they do. Just the thought is uncomfortable, if you ask me. I hate to put it this way, but Te is usually pretty square. TP is willing to fuck around a bit more and not worry about the long term.. to them, it's not going to be boring at least.

  10. #30
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    I don't experience much feels right - is right conflict, but I have only recently been learning to differentiate my moods from my feelings, as OA has also described. For a very long time I let my moods overwhelmingly dictate my behavior, and it's particularly in the context of my relationship (sorry guys I really am sx to the max) that I have been forced to mentally split between "I am angry at you now" and "I want us to be together in the long term". I feel like I have to fight back the dragon inside myself to make a better decision, like trying to speak calmly and give the benefit of the doubt instead of yelling. It's a learning process, that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude
    TP is willing to fuck around a bit more and not worry about the long term..
    I actually wonder if there's not some kind of FP correlate to this, in that Fi and Ti are more "timeless" in nature than Fe and Te, and therefore subjective validation and aiming for what "should" be is more important than objective influence and immediate delivery of results. Combine that with the exploratory, holistic nature of Se and Ne, and you wind up with Ps being much more likely to behave spontaneously and to feel more comfortable with less consistent behavior.

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