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  1. #11
    Anew Leaf
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    I should probably state that I am not trying to entirely replace my emotional system with logic per se.... I just wonder where the edges blur a bit. The decisions and ideas that I have that are spurred solely on emotion with no basis in reality give me pause to think at times... but that push of the emotion is almost too strong to ignore because...... AMGS THE POSSIBILITIES, etc.

    Edit: I will reply to everyone tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas. C:

  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I should probably state that I am not trying to entirely replace my emotional system with logic per se.... I just wonder where the edges blur a bit. The decisions and ideas that I have that are spurred solely on emotion with no basis in reality give me pause to think at times... but that push of the emotion is almost too strong to ignore because...... AMGS THE POSSIBILITIES, etc.

    Edit: I will reply to everyone tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas. C:
    I can only speak from my perspective on what's an acceptable "blur". I think a lot of my "value" system is borrowed (Fe values), due to some spiritual beliefs and things I've read and thought about over time. It helped me get a perspective on being more humane and considerate. If I took a totally Ti Se viewpoint, I'd be trying to gain leverage on everyone around me. Which is how I used to think, give or take some exceptional moments.

    I don't really have a logical basis for why I adopt some F ideas now.. a lot of it was first spurred on by guilt and just not wanting to be a dick anymore. These aren't really logical platforms to base my decisions on, but I think it's best to just ignore that. It's helped me in many ways, and that's good enough. And if anything, it's practical to be humane and consider others.

    How you would come around to incorporating Te is kind of beyond me. But I think it can probably be done. Like the old saying goes, "if there's a will, there's a way". The fact that you desire some changes is already a change in itself. It'd be a bigger problem if you were completely oblivious. Maybe you just need to define and identify the exact areas where it's failing, and then simply take a slower, more methodical approach in these weak areas, rather than relying on your old "F" standby that's gotten you in trouble. Does that make sense? Basically, just take your time and learn from mistakes. This is Te at it's simplest.. this attention to doing things right. Some may even be obessesive about it. A lot of TJs dwell and think about process.. correct process, that is (you'll find that TPs probably frustrate them with a more ends/result based logic. So not even "logical" types are the same).

  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I think you need both logic and emotion equally to be the most rational/logical person you can be. It made me think of this passage of a book I read called the "Happiness Hypothesis". I thought the author framed it in an interesting light.
    Happy New Years!


    Welll, that's pretty much what I often do. There's some emotional content (aka my two emotions of excited and bored) but overall my choices go heavily through of process of pros and cons for new stuff or abnormal situations.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  4. #14
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

    I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

    I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic.
    My emotions are the only thing I trust without question. This actually reminds me of a joke I used to say at a place I worked at years ago, "don't bring logic into this, it will only screw things up!" (and that was before I knew anything about typology). I hope you don't ever change(I absolutely adore your spirit!) or doubt yourself. I offer you a quote that was given to me many years ago when I too was questioning things..."There is nothing wrong with you, its everybody else that has it wrong!"
    I'm never wrong, I'm just sometimes less right

  5. #15
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I think its important to be able to consciously judge when to listen you F response and how much to give it weight in the given situation(applies to all types). Naturally there are some instances where its obvious that F response matters more than T and others where its the other way around, but at times there are situations where you cant just intuitively know that, and need to stop to compare what T says and what F says and judge between them. Personally(might not work for you since im TiFe) i tend to compile two different big pictures, one from the point of view of T and one from F. Basically when compiling the big picture, im trying to look every individual aspect in it separately and sort of give it % of yes or no(or i dont really use the %, but its the closest thing it can be translated to and its actually more like 100% = 2x 85% type of thing than actual percentages(and sometimes it might be 80% = 2x 20%, it kinda varies on situations), complicated to explain, but i can do that instantly), which push the big picture more towards yes or no based on its %. and after forming this big picture, i try to see it the result i got for the T big picture seems about right, sort of double check it. Then i do the same thing with F and compare the F %yes and no to T% yes and no, then if its not obvious answer, i tend to compare the two using T.

    This process might last anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 mins depending on the issue at hand and all its complications. But i dont have to think like that too often, often its just "would be nice to do X, but on the other hand Y, so i rather do Z". Its basically the more important the issue is, more precisely i evaluate every single aspect of it and i dont need to think about %'s as numbers, but its more like some sort of marker that i dont need to give conscious/concrete value to, but it keeps its value in comparison to other things nevertheless, kinda hard to explain :P .

    Maybe it might work with FiTe too, since ur using NeSi, since after all T and F are still T and F regardless of whether they are E or I.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    There's a system called Human Design that you might be interested in. If you are what's called an Emotionally Defined being, then your slogan is "There is no truth in the now," and to know whether or not your emotions should be acted upon, you should wait a certain period of time before you act on them. It might be worth investigating. It has helped me a good bit to understand that I'm NOT emotionally defined, and my cues to act should come from elsewhere. My emotions are transient and not cues for me to act upon.

  7. #17
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    While I've said I don't base decisions on emotions per se, I do use my personal feelings a lot in the process- but my main objection to the distinction is that most decisions I can think of relate to me and my life and what is good for me and would make me happy- so I really don't see the distinction. A decision really isn't good if it doesn't make you happy, and you can't really make something happen without logic and rational evaluation. Maybe I think too much, but I think these thinking and feeling distinctions are mostly just arbitrary and don't really mean anything.

    Anyone disagree, and why? Can someone give me a clear example in which there is a decision to be made which has two clear choices based on Thinking and Feeling, both of which are equally good, or a decision with a good answer which could be reached by both these methods of thought?

  8. #18
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I have a problem with giving into moods. These don't influence my judgements about what is important or what is right, but they can influence my actions, even as I know they are not beneficial to me in the long run.

    I actually had a hard time giving weight to my emotions in decision-making though. I experience Feeling as rational, and the separation of the two was clear to me. Unlike Thinking, there is a greater need for Feeling & emotions to be in harmony, IMO. The inner turmoil caused by a disharmony is always present with a Fi-dom. Reconciling the two is something we may take a lot of time and energy to do. When they are out of sync, a great Bad Mood descends...

    For me, these three are NOT the same:

    Feeling - I experience this as rational, as it's a form of thinking (8 forms of it ). Before I learned MBTI/Jungian terminology, I would have called this thinking, forming lines of reasoning, rational analysis, and perhaps even a form of logic. I distinguish it as Feeling now because I see my core premise is always an unconditional human value; what is this worth, what does it mean - in relation to being a person? Nearly everything is personal then, not in an emotional way, but in a way that acknowledges the impact things have on people. And when something is not personal, then it, frankly, doesn't interest me much. This is how I know I am a Fi-dom.

    Moods - These are very much the transient states mentioned in the OP. It's hard for me not to live in them. They affect my demeanor more than anything. They are often at odds with my feeling. They even get in the way of my clarifying my own emotions to myself, and finding something useful in my emotions; I have to work hard to distinguish them from my real emotion. These have become the enemy for me, and for years they tried to fool me into thinking my Feeling and real emotions were not to be trusted, that they were far too idealistic. I used to deal with them by isolating myself a lot, so as not to inflict myself on others when moody. I think that was a mistake; I allowed them to control me. Now I just kind of try to push through it, so that I can get to the bottom of things & find my real emotion.

    Emotions - For me, these signify value, absence of it, violation of it, etc. This is my brain's way of saying - "pay attention to this area" or of supporting a valuation. I certainly consider emotions when making decisions, but they are not all I consider. Understanding WHY I have a certain emotion is the hardest part. Once I am able to dissect it thoroughly, then rarely do I find an emotion is useless. I used to not listen to my emotions much at all, feeling that when they were at odds with my Feeling that I simply was not disciplined enough. I confused my moods with emotions & emotions with moods. I felt all the restrictions of being a Feeling type, but none of the benefits; I was GOOD, but not happy or warm. I made responsible choices, but I didn't fill my needs or anyone else's. I didn't wrong people, but I couldn't connect with them. I refined my Feeling judgements by allowing my emotions some validity. I took them into account, as significant data. It helped me to better see what I need, and in turn, what people in general need, and that there's no shame in NEED.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    While I've said I don't base decisions on emotions per se, I do use my personal feelings a lot in the process- but my main objection to the distinction is that most decisions I can think of relate to me and my life and what is good for me and would make me happy- so I really don't see the distinction. A decision really isn't good if it doesn't make you happy, and you can't really make something happen without logic and rational evaluation. Maybe I think too much, but I think these thinking and feeling distinctions are mostly just arbitrary and don't really mean anything.

    Anyone disagree, and why? Can someone give me a clear example in which there is a decision to be made which has two clear choices based on Thinking and Feeling, both of which are equally good, or a decision with a good answer which could be reached by both these methods of thought?
    There is happy and happy, with the distinction based on which time scale one is considering. Someone with a stressful job who has had a particularly bad day may feel that quitting will make them happy. They will have the satisfaction of telling the boss what they really think of the job, and the relief of knowing they will never have to return to that negative environment again. Having no job, however, may quite well bring more unhappiness in the longer term. A thinking-based decision involves more planning and premeditation: e.g. tolerating the unpleasant job while networking to find a better one, and leaving only after that future is secured. While the logic here is clear, the feeling function is present as well, since one is weighing competing personal values. In fact, this is a good example of the two working together. The first option (quit precipitously), by contrast, overrelies not so much on feeling as a function, but rather on emotion as an input to the process. An important decision based on emotion is likely to be less sound in the long term, but both thinking and feeling as functions can be used to resist the pull of the immediate emotion in favor of something more lasting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I wouldn't chalk up impulsive job-quitting to F.. I've done it many times. A lot of the forecasting and preparation may very well be Ni or Si. TPs still inhabit the moment like FPs. The logic comes into play in on the fly manuevering. But they can lose their grounding as well, find themselves on their asses, realizing they're not as clever as they think. At least STPs don't think about the future enough. Not sure I could say the same for NTP, but I think they share a lot in common.

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