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  1. #1
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Default Management bias against women is actually bias against Fs?

    According to this research, managers are overwhelmingly one of the following 4 types:

    ESTJ (22.5%)
    ENTJ
    ISTJ
    ENTP

    Over half of all managers have a TJ preference (unsurprisingly).

    This holds true across a broad range of industries and countries. (Only exceptions being Agriculture/Forestry - where ISTPs replace ENTJs, and the Dutch, who apparently prefer ESTPs to ISTJs.)

    Now, the male/female % split in this management sample is 76/22. This would ordinarily be explained in terms of an (implicit or explicit) bias in favour of males. However, according to this study only 30% of women in the general population are Ts. Given this, the pool of "suitable" women (assuming T is a favourable trait) shrinks considerably.

    In fact, it appears that most of the variance can be explained by type, rather than gender.

    86% of managers are Ts, (compared with a population avg of 46%.)
    i.e. just under twice as many as would be expected
    76% of female managers are Ts, (compared to pop. avg of 30%)
    2.5 times as many as would be expected

    This highlights a massive ( largely hidden) bias against Fs, both male and female. The majority of people (54%) express a preference for F, and yet they are overwhelmingly managed by Ts.

    Naturally, one can debate whether T is more valued because of its association with masculinity. But, that's a more subtle issue.
    One can also debate whether T managers actually make better managers; again, another question entirely. (Personally, I doubt it.)

    Also worthy of note is that all of the NTs are significantly overrepresented, (more so than STJs, for example, compared to expected % based on gen. pop.). The biggest variance is for INTJ females, with SSR 12.

    The order (from highest to lowest, adjusted for representation in population) is as follows:

    Overrepresented
    ENTJ
    INTJ
    ENTP
    INTP
    ESTJ

    Expected levels
    ISTJ
    ESTP

    Underrepresented
    ENFJ
    ISTP
    ENFP
    INFJ
    INFP
    ESFJ
    ISFJ
    ESFP
    ISFP

    So much for "Sensor bias"...

    There's a pretty clear hierarchy of NT >ST>NF> SF (note that academia isn't included, where one might expect even greater N bias).
    With J/P and E/I, perhaps surprisingly, being of lesser importance. (Js doing better than Ps and Es than Is within the broader pattern.)

    So, T > N > J > E are favoured, in that order.

    In fact, other than the ENFJ/ISTP flip, it's an amazingly consistent pattern.

    Lots of important implications, methinks... The main one being, IMO, that if we really want to encourage diversity/inclusivity, we need to start valuing a more F (cooperative/personal) management style, rather than simply focussing on an assumed gender divide.

    Report draws the alternative, somewhat crass (though not unexpected) conclusion that "looking at some of the biases that seem to occur, it would be valuable to gain an understanding of whether managers are recognising that in order to cope with a managerial role, they need to develop the ability to behave in ways typically reported for ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ or ENTP types."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  2. #2
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Report draws the alternative, somewhat crass (though not unexpected) conclusion that "looking at some of the biases that seem to occur, it would be valuable to gain an understanding of whether managers are recognising that in order to cope with a managerial role, they need to develop the ability to behave in ways typically reported for ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ or ENTP types."
    Well, I don't much like it either... but the goal for hiring someone into a management role, in many(most) cases, really does focus on a very practical, impersonal, strongly goal-oriented desire. That goal is often to make money, save money, increase product/money efficiency ratio, etc. More personal considerations, that stereotypes would guide us into believing the domain of F types, are usually only a minor consideration - and even then only in a "if people like us, they may give us more time/money" way. So in the pursuit of a largely impersonal goal, it's not surprising that people whose preferences may lie in more subjective traits are underrepresented.

    Although I'm not fond of the whole "function" theory, it's interesting to note that among the top six most over-represented types in management, all four of the "Te" types are present (ENTJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ). Also interesting that the other two are INTP's and ENTP's - who, I think it's fair to say, are rather notorious for hating being told what to do ("managed"). One way to avoid being "managed" is to rise up and manage others (even though that is equally lousy, in different ways, at least for me as an intp).
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  3. #3
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    This book is the best thing I've read on the topic. It is more about leadership than management per se.

    There are a few things I've been able to discern from the things I've read:
    - @Salomé, as you stated, TJ is dominant in management. Also, the higher you go, the more TJ it is (those ENTPs you mention start to disappear). There is also a predominance of STJs in manager positions overall. However, as you go higher up the ladder, NTJs are represented in disproportionate numbers relative to their frequency in the population.
    - Reality is defined by the dominant types in leadership and it is self perpetuating. For example, if you work in a large government organization, it wouldn't be surprising that management is overwhelmingly filled with STJ types and if you're not an STJ and want to advance - well then good luck.
    - It’s all about culture, what is valued in that culture, and what is the norm – the culture of the company, the department you’re in, the type of industry, the country you’re in, etc. Though it is not so prevalent in the US anymore, there is no question in my mind that there is a bias against women in management in certain cultures. I have seen this.
    - People adjust their natural behavior to emulate the dominant types in leadership positions. You'll see Fs that try to act more like Ts or Ps that will try to act like Js. They do this to their detriment (from a type development standpoint anyway) while resenting the dominant type.

    Also, in that book there is some interesting information on coworker feedback on leaders relative to type. For example, ENTJs are perceived by co-workers as less effective leaders than other types of TJs. Feeling types are rated higher by subordinates than thinking types. INFJs were the highest rated supervisors in one study. ENTPs and ESTPs fit the most effective leadership profile of any of the thinking types. Etc.

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  4. #4

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    One thing that the study doesn't represent tho us people like me. I'm an INfJ and while I'm not yet part of senior management (I will be in the next year or 2), I have the ear of senior management and often have significant input to personnel issues (I'm in charge of HR).

    Point of that being, I wonder how many of us underrepresented types are a strong influence within a company, altho not necessarily called management.

    This, I think, has a couple of issues. One being that we do influence the function of the company probably more so than is immediately recognized. Another being that we're doing the work of managers without the title, recognition, etc. (I've often found myself in this situation...almost every job I've ever had, actually).

    This could be partly due to difficulty in promoting ourselves in the way that ENTJs do, for example. We don't push for recognition and advancement the way some types more characteristically do.

    So, I wonder then if it's as much bias as it is picking the "squeakiest" wheels. Those people who are out front, promoting themselves as "management material."

  5. #5
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Well, I don't much like it either... but the goal for hiring someone into a management role, in many(most) cases, really does focus on a very practical, impersonal, strongly goal-oriented desire. That goal is often to make money, save money, increase product/money efficiency ratio, etc.
    You omit that short-term results are valued over longer term goals. That's a deep flaw in capitalist culture directly inherited (I would suggest) from too many greedy, ambitious, short-sighted TJs in positions of power.

    More personal considerations, that stereotypes would guide us into believing the domain of F types,
    Wait... That's not a stereotype. It's the definition of Feeling.

    Also interesting that the other two are INTP's and ENTP's - who, I think it's fair to say, are rather notorious for hating being told what to do ("managed"). One way to avoid being "managed" is to rise up and manage others (even though that is equally lousy, in different ways, at least for me as an intp).
    True. And that may be one reason for INTP overrepresentation (though we are just as loathe to tell others what to do, I would have said). I suspect in this case (since we aren't exactly known for our ambition) it might be a bit of "the Peter principle" at work. People who are highly competent in one job being promoted out of their comfort zone. I know that I have had to work quite hard NOT to be promoted in this way. I have no interest (or aptitude) in managing anyone /thing other than myself and my own projects. On that point I am quite inflexible. Fortunately, IT has dual career paths in recognition of this tendency in people who are technically-minded.

    I find it hard to believe that the average INTP would make a better people manager than the average ESFJ, for example. Developing / relating to people is not our forte. Neither is planning, organising or budgeting, for that matter. We tend to have a pretty narrow (if deep) skillset.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This book is the best thing I've read on the topic. It is more about leadership than management per se.
    What does it advocate?

    - It’s all about culture, what is valued in that culture, and what is the norm – the culture of the company, the department you’re in, the type of industry, the country you’re in, etc.
    Though there is no data from the East, all the countries/industries demonstrate a near identical picture. Very little variance despite vast cultural differences (between Sweden and the US, for example, or the public sector vs banking and finance)
    I think it's simpler than that. It's about dominant, power-seeking behaviours pushing a person to the top. (This is a less than surprising finding.)
    as you go higher up the ladder, NTJs are represented in disproportionate numbers
    So are psychopaths. Coincidence?
    Though it is not so prevalent in the US anymore, there is no question in my mind that there is a bias against women in management in certain cultures. I have seen this.
    When I suggest women are discriminated against, you say they aren't. When I suggest they're not, you say they are.
    I think you just like to be contrary. :P
    - People adjust their natural behavior to emulate the dominant types in leadership positions. You'll see Fs that try to act more like Ts or Ps that will try to act like Js. They do this to their detriment (from a type development standpoint anyway) while resenting the dominant type.
    The data don't support Js having much of an edge, so I doubt that. Certainly in the creative industries, there's no advantage to acting like a J.
    As for Fs acting like Ts, I guess they have to, if they want promotion. They shouldn't have to. It's morally wrong to value attributes that are innate to less than half the population over those of the majority (unless they can be shown objectively to have intrinsic value). It's nothing short of typological tyranny.

    Feeling types are rated higher by subordinates than thinking types. INFJs were the highest rated supervisors in one study. ENTPs and ESTPs fit the most effective leadership profile of any of the thinking types. Etc.
    Of course they are. This shouldn't surprise anyone. TJ dogmatism is rarely a productive means of inspiring anyone/accomplishing anything useful. No one should assume that the status quo represents a meritocracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmommy View Post
    One thing that the study doesn't represent tho us people like me. I'm an INfJ and while I'm not yet part of senior management (I will be in the next year or 2), I have the ear of senior management and often have significant input to personnel issues (I'm in charge of HR).

    Point of that being, I wonder how many of us underrepresented types are a strong influence within a company, altho not necessarily called management.

    This, I think, has a couple of issues. One being that we do influence the function of the company probably more so than is immediately recognized. Another being that we're doing the work of managers without the title, recognition, etc. (I've often found myself in this situation...almost every job I've ever had, actually).
    You forgot to mention: much lower pay.
    There is nothing that suggests the best person for the job gets the job, in fact, if anything, the opposite is often true. The global financial meltdown is the inevitable result of what happens when you prize short-term results for the few and risk-taking, psychopathic behaviours above corporate responsibility, ethics and sustainability.
    This could be partly due to difficulty in promoting ourselves in the way that ENTJs do, for example. We don't push for recognition and advancement the way some types more characteristically do.

    So, I wonder then if it's as much bias as it is picking the "squeakiest" wheels. Those people who are out front, promoting themselves as "management material."
    I think some of it is about ambition, some of it is about hardwork (or at least being seen to be hard-working) some of it is just balls-out brazenness and overconfidence, some is about being politically astute and Machiavellian. Precious little is about talent or competence. Aggression and narcissism will get you further than competence in this world.
    Of course, this ties in nicely with the "pathological left-hemisphere dominance" theory of which I'm such a fan. Only valuing its own supremely narrow focus on power and manipulation, blind to the value of everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  6. #6
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Id love to see myself managing something/someone.....id be sitting there laughing at myself the entire time

    I swear, my experience with finding work is the same as with looking directly at the sun with the naked eye; I can do it.....it just damages me in the process.

    Not sure why...it's probably an attitude reason. Im not exactly a....'team player'. In any case, back to the topic at hand this isn't that surprising.

    Although it does require that you give MBTI more credit than it really deserves, especially in the statistics deparment. However, I agree with the points raised here. Traits of management are largely applicable to TJ types.

    In any case ive got no desire for it, it pulls me far too much outside of myself for it to be a comfortable experience and while we cannot always be comfortable, sometimes it's a case of putting your foot down....usually on the manager's face.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  7. #7
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Hmm, interesting.

    There are so many ties into this that I am not sure where exactly to start.

    I think that there are a lot of personalities who simply do not WANT to be in management, or work their way up into positions of greater power, responsibility, etc. And, I think a lot of the F types would fall into that. But it's probably more interesting to think about the Why behind why that is. I'd lump myself into that bunch, even though my direct supervisor would actually like to groom me for that path, or sees me as a viable candidate for that sort of path. But the thing is, is I don't want it. And I think a lot of it has to do with my looking at those who ARE in it, and the culture behind it, and I want little to do with it - with most of the personalities in it. I'd have to morph myself quite a lot, I think. Or, even if I didn't, I'd still be stuck being the odd man out, disagreeing with the direction/culture the bulk of the time, and/or the spoken and unspoken expectations placed upon me.
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  8. #8
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Hmm, interesting.

    There are so many ties into this that I am not sure where exactly to start.

    I think that there are a lot of personalities who simply do not WANT to be in management, or work their way up into positions of greater power, responsibility, etc. And, I think a lot of the F types would fall into that.
    My thoughts exactly. I would think an F wanting to keep conflict at a minimum, along with seeing employees on a more personal level would make it very uncomfortable for them. I would think T's wouldn't have as much of an issue with this.
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  9. #9
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I would think an F wanting to keep conflict at a minimum, along with seeing employees on a more personal level would make it very uncomfortable for them. I would think T's wouldn't have as much of an issue with this.
    For me it's more that I intrinsically disagree with the approach and expectations of most management - in terms of short-term results that @Salome alludes to, lack of a work-life balance the higher up you go (and therefore expected timeframes being adjusted to factor in the lack of the work-life balance), everyone having their own agenda and the general theme of being unaware or willfully oblivious to the actual things going on and impacts on things based on making decisions without caring about the ripple effects on other processes, etc. Generally speaking, it's the tendency of 'we'll get it 70-80% right' and run with it, let everyone else deal with the muck that ensues.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #10
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    OMFG! Thank you for this thread! It supports what I've been saying all along about the supposed "S favoritism of the real world."
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