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  1. #51
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This book is the best thing I've read on the topic. It is more about leadership than management per se.

    There are a few things I've been able to discern from the things I've read:
    - @Salomé, as you stated, TJ is dominant in management. Also, the higher you go, the more TJ it is (those ENTPs you mention start to disappear). There is also a predominance of STJs in manager positions overall. However, as you go higher up the ladder, NTJs are represented in disproportionate numbers relative to their frequency in the population.
    - Reality is defined by the dominant types in leadership and it is self perpetuating. For example, if you work in a large government organization, it wouldn't be surprising that management is overwhelmingly filled with STJ types and if you're not an STJ and want to advance - well then good luck.
    - It’s all about culture, what is valued in that culture, and what is the norm – the culture of the company, the department you’re in, the type of industry, the country you’re in, etc. Though it is not so prevalent in the US anymore, there is no question in my mind that there is a bias against women in management in certain cultures. I have seen this.
    - People adjust their natural behavior to emulate the dominant types in leadership positions. You'll see Fs that try to act more like Ts or Ps that will try to act like Js. They do this to their detriment (from a type development standpoint anyway) while resenting the dominant type.

    Also, in that book there is some interesting information on coworker feedback on leaders relative to type. For example, ENTJs are perceived by co-workers as less effective leaders than other types of TJs. Feeling types are rated higher by subordinates than thinking types. INFJs were the highest rated supervisors in one study. ENTPs and ESTPs fit the most effective leadership profile of any of the thinking types. Etc.
    A lot of what I would have said in response to the initial post is contained in this post, but there are a few things I'd add.

    1) There's a certain aspect of leadership, namely the ability to rapidly make a decision and stick to it, that TJs are better at than other types. So, in that sense, it's probably not a bad thing that there's a plethora of TJs in those rapid-fire decision-making positions. Now, unfortunately (at least on some level) there are a lot of other roles that are often wrapped up into the managerial position, including some HR-type responsibilities, that FJs would probably be better suited to.
    2) The problem with these kinds of "studies" is that they're extremely unreliable. Tests are not reliable indicators of type, so whatever data they got on their study group's types may not be highly accurate. That's huge because it could mean that all of their "statistics" on the presence or absence of certain types in managerial positions could be off.

  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's about Engineering. Not Management. Which is, I think you'll agree, a broader church.
    Doesn't matter. I posted this link in response to your denial of:

    Fs aren't as talented or competent as Ts at certain activities/tasks, and vice versa. That's not bigotry, just diversity.
    Are you now limiting your objection to management activities only? I worked one summer at a business school library and ran across similar data for management tasks, but currently have data for science and engineering skills more readily available. The underlying point is the same, however: on average, all types are not equally competent at all activities, though individuals of any type certainly can be. This is one aspect of discrimination you seem to be missing, namely that individuals should not be judged by statistics, however conclusive the statistics may be at establishing a trend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    See the OP.
    I suppose you would have been a slave owner in colonial times? I can see you now. "These people are only good for picking cotton. You can't give them an education. They'd only waste it."
    Some people ARE only good for picking cotton, but I would be an equal opportunity overseer; there are plenty of dumb whites who would also fit the bill.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 01-08-2013 at 11:30 PM.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #53
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You have done nothing to counter my argument.
    What is your argument, exactly? I see nothing worth contending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Are you now limiting your objection to management activities only?
    Check thread title. The scope is unchanged.
    Some people ARE only good for picking cotton, but I would be an equal opportunity overseer; there are plenty of dumb whites who would also fit the bill.
    Wow. Thanks for clarifying your position. It's clear you take pride in your chauvinism. Nothing more to say.

    The thread is unravelling much as I hoped it might...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #54
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    Started a new job wednesday. Manager wears a TJ face, quite efficient. Seems exfp otherwise.


    Lead supervisor seems inherently istj. Doesn't seem well liked, but knows what needs to be done.

  5. #55
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Check thread title. The scope is unchanged.
    Check the posts. Not so at all. In any case, the accuracy of your comments has nothing to do with whether members are posting off topic. Cute attempt to deflect attention, though.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #56
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Fs aren't as talented or competent as Ts at certain activities/tasks, and vice versa. That's not bigotry, just diversity. Expecting everyone to demonstrate the same range of talents, skills, and interests denies individuality, and even reality.
    And which activities/tasks are those? Please make an exhaustive list for each of the functions. I'd really like to know.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #57
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    And which activities/tasks are those? Please make an exhaustive list for each of the functions. I'd really like to know.
    That is a rather unrealistic request. In any case, a list by type or perhaps temperament might be more useful. Any book on type and career is a start, though they tend to paint the differences with a very broad brush, and provide few if any data. For an example of a more thorough treatment, you can see the paper I linked several posts back about engineering. I have read similar for computer programming, business management, military leadership, and teaching. Teaching is especially interesting since those studies go into the (mis)match in type between teacher and learner, and discuss learning styles as well.

    The important take-away is that any INDIVIDUAL can excel at any field if they have the determination and motivation. This is in part by learning to use non-preferred functions, and to develop skills uncommon (but not impossible) for their type. It is also in part by using their stronger suits to approach the task in different ways. These will often be the weak spots for the more customary holders of a given job. So, while generalizations are supportable, they don't determine outcomes for individuals.

    Moreover, a "T-bias" in hiring is justified if it reflects a bias toward T-typical skills related to the job, and not simply individuals with T in their type. (I wonder if there is an F-bias in counselors, or a SP-bias in fitness instructors, or if it is just that those occupations tend to be preferred by those types . . . perhaps because they are naturally good at it?? Heaven forbid.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #58
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Once again, you are missing the point, Coriolis. Whether deliberately or not, it's hard to say.

    I am not talking about (and the scope of the report does not cover) specific fields. Of course, interest and aptitude are related. When we talk about management, we are talking about a vertical dimension (that covers every field) so your narrow focus on the horizontal is unhelpful and irrelevant. Unless you are proposing that Fs are not interested in excelling in their chosen field (whatever that might be), which is utter nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #59
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    When I suggest women are discriminated against, you say they aren't. When I suggest they're not, you say they are.
    I think you just like to be contrary. :P
    I was having a similar thought to that reading this thread.

    I swear to the heavens above that you are just arguing for the position you were arguing against me about in my gender and sexuality blog a couple a months ago.

    I just don't understand.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #60
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I am not talking about (and the scope of the report does not cover) specific fields. Of course, interest and aptitude are related. When we talk about management, we are talking about a vertical dimension (that covers every field) so your narrow focus on the horizontal is unhelpful and irrelevant. Unless you are proposing that Fs are not interested in excelling in their chosen field (whatever that might be), which is utter nonsense.
    Are you equating excelling in one's field with entering management? To what degree are the skills required to be an effective manager distinct for each field vs. transferrable from one field to another? (The military, for instance, is based on the latter assumption.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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