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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Are you suggesting that the selection of Ts (almost exclusively) is not "artificial"?
    If so, you must believe that there is something about Ts that makes them inherently superior managers. Why don't you share what that is ?

    I am suggesting that there is a natural inclination towards a particular set of people for certain types of positions (as the data shows), and to select for variables against this inclination for sake of diversity seems artificial.


    In my experience of management, cohesive operation likely isn't a viable position for efficiency, unless the team is incredibly specialized. Fast paced environments coupled with non-specialized personnel is almost begging to be coordinated, and I've seen very unpopular but smart decisions made by sufficiently authorized personnel. Who, of the two dichotomies, would be more efficient at seeing this through? I would almost exclusively select EXTJ's for such a position, though I do acknowledge they are not the only type able to efficiently carry out business operations.


    Now specialized teams are something else altogether, and something I personally strive for in a work environment. If all ten cogs in a machine know exactly where and why their gears mesh, is such a controller necessary? Perhaps, but because of the unilateral operation I don't think either dichotomy would be more or less efficient at the position. This is likely where sensor/intuitive bias would come into play, more so than thinking/feeling.

  2. #22
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    There is nothing in the data I have presented which implies that any of this is "natural" or based on merit.

    Nothing at all.

    There is also no reason to suppose that an ExTJ is going to be better at coordination than an ExFJ.

    You are making those assumptions on a purely subjective basis (ironically).

    I don't know what you mean by "cohesive operation isn't viable". What's viable about non-cohesive operation?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    There is nothing in the data I have presented which implies that any of this is "natural" or based on merit.

    Nothing at all.

    Okay, I guess what exists is not considered natural then. Odd, but I will entertain your thinking in that regard.


    There is also no reason to suppose that an ExTJ is going to be better at coordination than an ExFJ.

    You are making those assumptions on a purely subjective basis (ironically).

    EXFJ would be a bad example of a differentiating selection, as I previously acknowledged differing types are capable of differing forms of efficiency. There are probably interspersed feeler types upon the upper dichotomies of efficient management, EXFJ's being in higher echelons than many T types. I would likely, however, select an EXTJ before an ISFP for your run of the mill business operations.


    I don't know what you mean by "cohesive operation isn't viable". What's viable about non-cohesive operation?

    I'd hoped context clues in the rest of the paragraph would have explained this. By 'cohesive operation' I meant each person relying on their own perceptions to carry out the job. In contrast, 'non-cohesive operation' would be a higher ranking official overseeing operation, controlling the operators inside the business as an extension of his/her own will. I suspect TJ's to be most efficient at this.

    There are times and places for both styles of management, but I would almost always select the latter for your average style of business operation. It simply provides more results with less capital.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I've contemplated that before. I think the basic conclusion is solid (T>F bias), but I'd attribute the apparent N>S bias to the fact that many smart sensors tend to test as intuitives (Att. Ti-tards: no, I'm not implying intuitives are smarter than sensors).
    That's true, too. They really need to fix the N/S dichotomy questions so that they stop being merely tests of self-perceived intelligence.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    EXFJ would be a bad example of a differentiating selection, as I previously acknowledged differing types are capable of differing forms of efficiency. There are probably interspersed feeler types upon the upper dichotomies of efficient management, EXFJ's being in higher echelons than many T types. I would likely, however, select an EXTJ before an ISFP for your run of the mill business operations.
    I understand what you're saying, but oh man, my all-time favorite team lead/manager was an ISFP. She was *amazing*. SO good with people/her employees, of all types, and my god, everyone loved her. She put together a phenomenal team, and we all would have gone down with the ship with her. I actually cried a bit when I gave her my resignation, because I felt so bad and because I knew what I was giving up - it's rare.

    She had some serious gumption, too, when the situation called for it.

    Contrast that with a non-people ExTJ, who's only concerned with the bottom line and slaps what the bulk of employees view as ill-conceived solutions onto the entire company to implement, and the downside of not actually valuing your employees becomes quickly apparent: rotting within, resistance, pushback, sometimes people deliberately not assisting/giving information, NOT being willing to join 'the team' (because it doesn't exist), etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Okay, I guess what exists is not considered natural then. Odd, but I will entertain your thinking in that regard.
    What exists is merely a description. It tells us nothing about why it exists, how it came to be, etc.,. So as with anything else, the word "natural" has no place in the discussion.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but oh man, my all-time favorite team lead/manager was an ISFP. She was *amazing*. SO good with people/her employees, of all types, and my god, everyone loved her. She put together a phenomenal team, and we all would have gone down with the ship with her. I actually cried a bit when I gave her my resignation, because I felt so bad and because I knew what I was giving up - it's rare.

    She had some serious gumption, too, when the situation called for it.

    I am curious, what service/product/intent did this assembled team provide in the universe?


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What exists is merely a description. It tells us nothing about why it exists, how it came to be, etc.,. So as with anything else, the word "natural" has no place in the discussion.

    Reminds me of Sagan, "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch you must first create the universe."


    I do not enjoy that line of logic.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I am curious, what service/product/intent did this assembled team provide in the universe?
    Systems testing of code; financial industry. [I also added a bit more to my post]
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Systems testing of code; financial industry. [I also added a bit more to my post]

    Cool, I went back and read it, and I agree. ExTJ's likely aren't my first pick for specialized teams, as I'd noted. I think that level of management goes beyond basic type functions; an ideal leader would likely be a conglomerate of developed function use, as your ISFP probably was.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Okay, I guess what exists is not considered natural then. Odd, but I will entertain your thinking in that regard.
    Entertain this: is/ought fallacy.

    would likely, however, select an EXTJ before an ISFP for your run of the mill business operations.
    So you share the common prejudice against feelers. What does this purport to prove?

    I'd hoped context clues in the rest of the paragraph would have explained this. By 'cohesive operation' I meant each person relying on their own perceptions to carry out the job. In contrast, 'non-cohesive operation' would be a higher ranking official overseeing operation, controlling the operators inside the business as an extension of his/her own will. I suspect TJ's to be most efficient at this.
    You suspect. Where is the evidence?

    There are times and places for both styles of management, but I would almost always select the latter for your average style of business operation. It simply provides more results with less capital.
    Prove it.
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