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  1. #11
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    OMFG! Thank you for this thread! It supports what I've been saying all along about the supposed "S favoritism of the real world."
    But...but that's all we have!! We have to feel superior.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
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  2. #12
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I wonder when humanity will evolve beyond artificial "big man" tribal hierarchies.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #13
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    For me it's more that I intrinsically disagree with the approach and expectations of most management - in terms of short-term results that @Salome alludes to, lack of a work-life balance the higher up you go (and therefore expected timeframes being adjusted to factor in the lack of the work-life balance), everyone having their own agenda and the general theme of being unaware or willfully oblivious to the actual things going on and impacts on things based on making decisions without caring about the ripple effects on other processes, etc. Generally speaking, it's the tendency of 'we'll get it 70-80% right' and run with it, let everyone else deal with the muck that ensues.
    That may be what it is for you, and maybe many other "F" types. However, I would say it would depend upon the person & their values. I actually read in a book once about an INFP whom most thought was an super-hard ESTJ at work. That is b/c they were in a management position, and b/c of their own feelings of ineptness at being a Te dominant person, they became forced into "the grip" of their inferior function. Pretty interesting story. Maybe if I find it I will post...

    *Another interesting note, alot of people theorize that Hitler was an INFP "in the grip."
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  4. #14
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COLORATURA View Post
    That may be what it is for you, and maybe many other "F" types. However, I would say it would depend upon the person & their values.
    Oh... I agree. I didn't intend to come across that I was speaking for all F's, I was just stating my own reasons, as my own reasons differed from what you'd initially written.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #15
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Hmm, interesting.

    There are so many ties into this that I am not sure where exactly to start.

    I think that there are a lot of personalities who simply do not WANT to be in management, or work their way up into positions of greater power, responsibility, etc. And, I think a lot of the F types would fall into that. But it's probably more interesting to think about the Why behind why that is. I'd lump myself into that bunch, even though my direct supervisor would actually like to groom me for that path, or sees me as a viable candidate for that sort of path. But the thing is, is I don't want it. And I think a lot of it has to do with my looking at those who ARE in it, and the culture behind it, and I want little to do with it - with most of the personalities in it. I'd have to morph myself quite a lot, I think. Or, even if I didn't, I'd still be stuck being the odd man out, disagreeing with the direction/culture the bulk of the time, and/or the spoken and unspoken expectations placed upon me.
    I've heard this before - not just from Fs. I sometimes have a hard time understanding it. There is an ISTJ Enneagram 1 who worked for me. She's very talented. She has little motivation to progress though. Has idealistic views on what she wants to do. She won't work on a couple of key weaknesses that hold her back. I did what I could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You omit that short-term results are valued over longer term goals. That's a deep flaw in capitalist culture directly inherited (I would suggest) from too many greedy, ambitious, short-sighted TJs in positions of power.
    There will always be greed but it's more than that. It's the actual structure of the corporation and its status as a legal person. People run the things but they are slaves to profits and investor's expectations. It's the system they are a part of and investors want short term results. In my last job, I worked for a private partnership. It was a great place to work. There was a longer term focus on investment. Then they went public. The culture is now completely changed. It's about quarterly earnings, sales, numbers. It's all that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    I find it hard to believe that the average INTP would make a better people manager than the average ESFJ, for example. Developing / relating to people is not our forte. Neither is planning, organising or budgeting, for that matter. We tend to have a pretty narrow (if deep) skillset.
    The guy in the office next to mine is an INTP and very successful. He's highly entrepreneurial, diplomatic, an excellent negotiator and he cares about people. There is another INTP that I helped to groom over a period of 13 years from the time she graduated from college. She is an exceptional performer, mentor and project leader. She is one of the strongest performers I have worked with in my career. She sits around the corner from me. Both have progressed quite well up the management chain. Would either end up running the company? No. It wouldn't be the best use of their talents and they wouldn't like it but they do just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What does it advocate?
    MBTI is used in leadership development though perhaps quite poorly in most cases. The book I referenced above brings together a lot of research with an intent of understanding practical implications of that research and how MBTI applies in a leadership context. It's really a book for an advanced practitioner involved in leadership development and someone that uses MBTI. Basically, it's advocating the use of MBTI in leadership development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Though there is no data from the East, all the countries/industries demonstrate a near identical picture. Very little variance despite vast cultural differences (between Sweden and the US, for example, or the public sector vs banking and finance)
    I think it's simpler than that. It's about dominant, power-seeking behaviours pushing a person to the top. (This is a less than surprising finding.)
    So are psychopaths. Coincidence?

    I think some of it is about ambition, some of it is about hardwork (or at least being seen to be hard-working) some of it is just balls-out brazenness and overconfidence, some is about being politically astute and Machiavellian. Precious little is about talent or competence. Aggression and narcissism will get you further than competence in this world.
    Of course, this ties in nicely with the "pathological left-hemisphere dominance" theory of which I'm such a fan. Only valuing its own supremely narrow focus on power and manipulation, blind to the value of everything else.

    There is nothing that suggests the best person for the job gets the job, in fact, if anything, the opposite is often true. The global financial meltdown is the inevitable result of what happens when you prize short-term results for the few and risk-taking, psychopathic behaviours above corporate responsibility, ethics and sustainability.
    Cynicism run amok. I haven't seen any studies done in Latin America. It's not just about power-seeking behaviors. You are wrong when you say it is not about talent and competence. It absolutely is. It is about results. I've been around long enough to see that people who get promoted are ones their superiors think will deliver results at the level to which they are promoted at. Most times, they are performing at that level already. Talented people who apply themselves and have ambition progress. Yes, being politically astute is important as is confidence. There is nothing wrong with those things.

    Narcissistic behavior? I saw an extreme case of this once. The person imploded within two years. Nobody could stand working with her and she did not deliver results.

    Unethical behavior? Failure to appreciate diversity? Generally bad for business. Bad for the leaders of those businesses because it takes money out of their pockets. Ethical lapses can destroy companies and careers. Some go to jail. Look at what happened at Enron and Arthur Andersen. The actions of a few individuals destroyed those companies. Hubris, arrogance, dishonesty - these things can have pretty serious impacts. "You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time." People are found out. Ethics are viewed as very important at the company where I work. Diversity is well. It's about having an optimal and effective workforce. Reducing turnover of high performers. Companies that do well attract, develop and retain individuals that are talented and perform at high levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    When I suggest women are discriminated against, you say they aren't. When I suggest they're not, you say they are.
    I think you just like to be contrary. :P
    That is true.

    Edit: Also, on diversity of MBTI or other types in the workplace, I've got the following opinion. Over time, whatever contributes more to corporate profits is what will influence behaviors. It was disfunctional for women and minorities to be discriminated against in the workplace. Companies were limiting their talent pool. Bad for business. So it changed. To the extent there is more money in it, and risks are reduced (in relation to value), behavior will evolve. If there isn't more money in it then nothing will change. The other thing that can change things is regulatory pressure or laws, which certainly was a stimulant to women and minorities gaining greater equality but it was only that - a stimulus.

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  6. #16
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Over half of all managers have a TJ preference (unsurprisingly).

    This holds true across a broad range of industries and countries. (Only exceptions being Agriculture/Forestry - where ISTPs replace ENTJs, and the Dutch, who apparently prefer ESTPs to ISTJs.)

    Now, the male/female % split in this management sample is 76/22. This would ordinarily be explained in terms of an (implicit or explicit) bias in favour of males. However, according to this study only 30% of women in the general population are Ts. Given this, the pool of "suitable" women (assuming T is a favourable trait) shrinks considerably.

    In fact, it appears that most of the variance can be explained by type, rather than gender.

    86% of managers are Ts, (compared with a population avg of 46%.)
    i.e. just under twice as many as would be expected
    76% of female managers are Ts, (compared to pop. avg of 30%)
    2.5 times as many as would be expected

    This highlights a massive ( largely hidden) bias against Fs, both male and female. The majority of people (54%) express a preference for F, and yet they are overwhelmingly managed by Ts.

    Naturally, one can debate whether T is more valued because of its association with masculinity. But, that's a more subtle issue.
    One can also debate whether T managers actually make better managers; again, another question entirely. (Personally, I doubt it.)

    Also worthy of note is that all of the NTs are significantly overrepresented, (more so than STJs, for example, compared to expected % based on gen. pop.). The biggest variance is for INTJ females, with SSR 12.
    An interesting statistical compilation. I have heard (and agree with) the claim that most male/female differences in everyday communication are really T/F differences. This report presents convincing evidence that the same is true in the professional sphere, in short, supporting the highlighted.

    Are T traits are more valued due to their association with masculinity, or are they associated with masculinity by men because they are seen to be valuable? We say and observe that women are more likely to display F preference and traits, but these are the traits that have been expected and encouraged in women and girls for generations. I wonder sometimes if the entire gender disparity on the T/F scale is "man-made".

    A broader question is whether every type needs to be proportionally represented in every career or occupation. As others have observed, not everyone (or every type) is interested in every job or career path. Is it not OK for management to be disproportionately TJ, while art might be, say, disproportionately SP? Management as an activity can certainly benefit from the qualities usually associated with F and P. Artists similarly need to attend to the financial and promotional side of their work, but we don't address this by encouraging more TJs to become artists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You omit that short-term results are valued over longer term goals. That's a deep flaw in capitalist culture directly inherited (I would suggest) from too many greedy, ambitious, short-sighted TJs in positions of power.
    You have identified one of the most important shortcomings in business, and even broader society. The tendency at least for NTJs is long range planning. Unfortunately, many organizations do not support this, or say they do but just undercut such plans in favor of short-term gains. This seems more SP to me, but I am sure that is an oversimplification and may not even be accurate. It is a quality I blame on "the system", but the system is powerless without people to prop it up, and the ambitious NTJ, like anyone else, can too easily find him/herself doing just that in the name of achieving some long-term benefit that always remains out of reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The data don't support Js having much of an edge, so I doubt that. Certainly in the creative industries, there's no advantage to acting like a J.
    As for Fs acting like Ts, I guess they have to, if they want promotion. They shouldn't have to. It's morally wrong to value attributes that are innate to less than half the population over those of the majority (unless they can be shown objectively to have intrinsic value). It's nothing short of typological tyranny.
    Even in the creative industries, there are distinct disadvantages to being unable to act like a J when the situation demands. And why shouldn't F's have to act like T's sometimes? No one has any compunction about telling T's we have to act more like Fs to get ahead. Leadership and management seminars are full of this kind of advice. There is something imbalanced here. Where do we draw the line between asserting our individuality (I am who I am and it is wrong for you to expect me to be otherwise), and recognizing weaknesses that are holding us back or keeping us from our own goals and desires? Yes, we have the right to refuse to act like some other type. We can refuse to study French, too, but shouldn't then expect to be able to converse with a Frenchman (unless, of course, he has bothered to learn English).

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    There is nothing that suggests the best person for the job gets the job, in fact, if anything, the opposite is often true. The global financial meltdown is the inevitable result of what happens when you prize short-term results for the few and risk-taking, psychopathic behaviours above corporate responsibility, ethics and sustainability.

    I think some of it is about ambition, some of it is about hardwork (or at least being seen to be hard-working) some of it is just balls-out brazenness and overconfidence, some is about being politically astute and Machiavellian. Precious little is about talent or competence. Aggression and narcissism will get you further than competence in this world.
    What about those studies that show people favor friendliness over competence? That doesn't help, either, but should favor the Fs of the world, I suppose. The highlighted is unfortunately true. It is very frustrating to work for someone who neither displays professional competence, nor puts the goals of the organization first. Fortunately my organization doesn't do too badly in selecting managers. Hard work seems to be rewarded, and seniority to some degree, and a large dose of luck, i.e. being in the right place at the right time, as long as you are able to make good on the opportunity. If you don't, you will be passed over. Interestingly the worst supervisor I have had in recent years was also the only F, an ENFJ.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #17
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    So we should artificially select feeler types to play with our vested capital.


    You know, that line of thinking is why my school stopped playing dodgeball in eighth grade.

  8. #18
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I've contemplated that before. I think the basic conclusion is solid (T>F bias), but I'd attribute the apparent N>S bias to the fact that many smart sensors tend to test as intuitives (Att. Ti-tards: no, I'm not implying intuitives are smarter than sensors).

  9. #19
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I've contemplated that before. I think the basic conclusion is solid (T>F bias), but I'd attribute the apparent N>S bias to the fact that many smart sensors tend to test as intuitives (Att. Ti-tards: no, I'm not implying intuitives are smarter than sensors).
    I agree with this and it is something I have mused about myself.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #20
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    So we should artificially select feeler types to play with our vested capital.

    You know, that line of thinking is why my school stopped playing dodgeball in eighth grade.
    Are you suggesting that the selection of Ts (almost exclusively) is not "artificial"?
    If so, you must believe that there is something about Ts that makes them inherently superior managers. Why don't you share what you think that is ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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