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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default altruism vs objectivism and type



    i was watching these interviews of ayn rand(whos ideology i wasnt familiar with before) and her views summed up pretty well why my moral values clash with TeFi, especially with those whose Te>Fi. when it comes to those whose Fi>Te, i can sort of understand and accept better, because the reasons for them isnt the sort of twisted logic that rand is using, but about having so intense feelings about doing what the heart tells them that its hard to fight it. i dont think any type is purely on the side of objectivism or altruism, that only applies to unhealthy individuals.

    i dont think its good to have black and white view for either of the side of altruism vs objectivism, balance is the key in everything. but what i think is the key importance, is which side of this axis you are coming from. and id like to explain this axis bit better:

    altruistic side: you feel bad if something is preventing you from acting for the good of others in a situation where others need it, and if that would mean that its away from your own comfort and feel bad about that comfort that you gained from not acting for the good of others while sacrificing from self. i do think that with some people and in some situations its the inner inhibitions that keeps you from acting for the good of others and i think that even in those cases its altruistic, if you feel bad about having these inner inhibitions.

    objectivism side: you feel bad that you need to go against your own comfort for the good of others due to circumstances. this can be about someone having scratched your back in the past, so now you feel obligated to do it back and do it even tho you are like "shit, i wouldnt want to do this, but i have to because i owe it to that other person" or feeling good from being able to return a favor, because not returning the favor would make the person feel bad about himself. or like rand said that if that particular person has enough personal value for you(child, significant other, parent etc), then you might act in self sacrificing ways.

    the reason i used feeling bad in the descriptions instead of feeling good about doing X, is that its the negative feelings that people try to avoid and act in order to prevent them, and because if(in cases of many Fi doms for example) helping others is something that the person gets satisfaction from, he might be acting like an altruistic person would, but acting like that because of selfish reasons(getting satisfaction from and feeling good about oneself), which i think would fall in the category of objectivism.

    my argument on how this relates to Fi vs Fe is that, first of all, all types are able to act in good of others and that all types are able to act selfishly, but what sets Fe vs Fi apart in all this is that, Fe comes from altruistic side(of my definition) and Fi comes from the objectivism side. but the differences are shown more clearly to outsiders in Fe>Ti types and Te>Fi types, because Ti can inhibit Fe from acting out altruistic and Fi can inhibit Te from acting out according to objectivism.

    what do you guys think about this? and keep in mind that my question is about how objectivism and altruism was defined in this topic, not by some different definition that you might have.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #2
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    Hi,
    Well I think you've got it wrong. Rand does not present objectivism as you stated in your post. Rand's heroes (objectivist ideals) in her books constantly operate out of their comfort zones and do not feel bad about it at all whatever that costs to them, whereas the second-handers (altruists) always are after some mutual benefit between themselves or the pleasure of destroying an objectivist.
    Te>Fi is not necessary for one to have to do what one considers the right thing.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    That's a bullshit dichotomy and objectivism is bullshit.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlsandor View Post
    Hi,
    Well I think you've got it wrong. Rand does not present objectivism as you stated in your post. Rand's heroes (objectivist ideals) in her books constantly operate out of their comfort zones and do not feel bad about it at all whatever that costs to them, whereas the second-handers (altruists) always are after some mutual benefit between themselves or the pleasure of destroying an objectivist.
    Te>Fi is not necessary for one to have to do what one considers the right thing.
    Maybe no one gives a shit about objectivists and they really are all just spotty virgins living in their parents basements or attic space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Maybe no one gives a shit about objectivists and they really are all just spotty virgins living in their parents basements or attic space.
    Then again maybe I do.
    I also live in the biggest room, facing front lawn.

  6. #6
    Junior Member xennui's Avatar
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    I look at Rand's work as a pure, unadulterated hymn to the soul of the INTJ, a fantasy exploring the power of the individual and also a reaction to the soviet system by a very fearful, controlling and un-introspective woman which no rational person should base their life or worldview on, any more than Harry Potter or Tom Clancy. Though clearly, some do.

    I took a lot of inspiration from Atlas Shrugged and The Virtue of Selfishness due to having been raised in a controlling religious environment where 'love' was a weapon, something used to tear one down. And for those who are visionaries, who want to accomplish something great or even for the non-social introvert who's told all their life they need to put aside for the group, sacrifice for the youngest, put on a smiley face and join in--my god, those books can be a revelation. For me it was the first thing, other than therapy, that made me feel not guilty about being me, about wanting something for myself. Someone else being frustrated by the collective herd watering shit down, turning it to dysfunction rubbish, and pawing at you with their feeelings to come pour more energy in... grrrr....

    I feel like a closet Objectivist. It's my function as an INTJ, the TeFi, to be a visionary, individualistic asshole and to push for my crazy-ass way. But that 'function' is a function of society like any else, I still recognize that it's society that enables me and supports me, without it as my tools and resource I have nothing to work with, not to mention no purpose (I believe that ultimately it's people like xNFx's who's role it is to give 'meaning' to society and I avoid them--especially INFJ's--for always being on my back!) So it's a delicate balance of being true to myself and my function and to ignore the voices of childhood and religion that hammer at one to 'sacrifice', but to keep the humility that I'm just fulfilling my role like everyone else.

    For me it means I don't have to care about people anymore, but still the rule is "do no harm." In part because it's just not productive, like mentoring and encouraging my team is a lot more effective that supervisors who scream at crew. But I also know that I don't want to harm because it makes my mirror neurons barf, it's the way I'm programmed, morals are completely relative and I think life would be easier if I could just burn out the rest of the little Fe parts of my brain. I hate them.

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