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  1. #1
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Default Ne vs. Ni + seeing the future

    So it's no big secret that intuitives are known for being able to see "the big picture". In fact, many intuitives claim that they can see things that are going to happen before they even happen (not in a psychic way but in an intuitive way). So my question is this, in what way does seeing the future differ in terms of Ne and Ni? Ne users constantly report that they can see possibilities of things that could happen in the future? If so how does this work for Ne users? For instance, do you just know what possibilities could come next or do you have visions in your head of things that could happen almost like it was playing a reel of a movie in your head, except the movie was set in the future? Also I've heard that Ni users have visions of the future. What is this like for Ni users, is it just one large vision? Is it a few visions? What is this like?

    I ask this because there is a very real possibility that I use both Ne and Ni well. For instance, many times I will just know what possibilities may occur. However, many times what happens in my mind is that I have almost AMC theater screen style reels in my head of things that could happen. They are visions, and I have several of them. I will imagine a scenario and then the scenario will play in my head like a video. It's very strange. I'm trying to diagnose whether this is Ne, Ni, or some combination of functions.

  2. #2
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I think of what you describe in that last paragraph as Ne more-so because there is one point of origin (an idea) and then it branches outward like a web (or maybe web isn't a precise illustration, but I cannot think of another one right now). I know you use Ni though as well.

    No one is psychic. No one knows the future. I know you were not saying that, I just wanted to reiterate it. But I think Ni dom users' way of seeing the future is unusual because we already see things in a way others do not tend to see (which is what not only makes us weird, because INTPs are weird, but in a cool way--INTPs are weird in a cool way, I mean-- but moreso unpopular, because it's usually against mainstream thought at the time), so we take lots of loose ends and try to melt them into a unifying cohesive endpoint/endtime. Because we start from thought-places others usually don't frequent already, we necessarily end up at a place that others cannot seem to fathom. Then when they demand to try and follow our thought processes, they cannot because the origins of thought were based on Ni irrationality.

    It only comes to bear out once time has passed and Ni's prediction has come true. Not that it always comes true, by any means.

    I don't so much as try to predict the future, though I do naturally contemplate it. I find it overwhelming to contemplate for the most part. Because for me it involves taking unlimited variables and finding the ones with common denominators, or eventual common denominators, that will probably end up relating, at some future point in time. I think that is why, if you want an accurate prediction, you listen to those who might be expert in their field. An Ni dom who is expert in a field. INTJs might be better therefore at predicting events regarding systems and fluctuations, and INFJs at predicting human nature.


    And, hi btw. Thanks for the thread.
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  3. #3
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    Interesting question!

    I see the possibilities of how a situation could play out, they play out in my mind in the same manner as daydreamed thoughts and ideas. They are partially seen but partially not (I would compare them to having their outlines drawn in invisible ink with my mind just pretending its coloured and detailed.) I do not get the sense of "premonition" I have heard associated with the Ni however I have been intrigued by the occurrence of "perspective shift" inside my head. I do not know if this can occur as part of the evaluation of Ne via the dominant introverted judging function or if I am actually using Ni though. I see numerous possibilities but their likelihood of occurrence is only defined through the Fi and Te, although they are dismissed as not going to happen the Ne still maintains it as a possible (abeit unlikely) outcome. When the two functions choose not to get involved the various outcomes remain undefined. I don't really have an "aha" moment so much but I do have a "lightbulb" moment where I suddenly realise a connection between two seemingly far removed entities or ideas or a new way of solving a problem I have been facing.

    Despite the above however my Ne (and probably Fi) does allow me to see far into the future (e.g. thousands or millions of years) to possible futures for humanity and the universe itself. Ni is usually associated with distant future thinking but I do believe that Ne can do the same (it's the same principles as near future thought IMO.)

    IIRC SolitaryWalker (who used to be on this site) either created or popularized the idea that we simulate the use of shadow functions through the simultaneous use of two functions. In our case we could in theory utilise a caricature (though sound) version of the Ni through the use of both Ne and the Ji function at the same time. Likewise the same with TPs using simulated Fi through the analysis of their Fe through their Ti and FPs simulating Ti via Fi evaluation of the Te. If this is correct then you probably are indeed using Ne and Ni as you claim.

  4. #4
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    I've noticed that many Ti users (ESTP's) especially say that they are constantly 10 steps ahead of others. If so I would ask how this is possible? After all ESTP's are intuitive function last. Do you think Ne<Ti could look like Ni?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I've noticed that many Ti users (ESTP's) especially say that they are constantly 10 steps ahead of others. If so I would ask how this is possible? After all ESTP's are intuitive function last. Do you think Ne<Ti could look like Ni?
    When you say 10 steps ahead do you mean in the prophetic sense e.g. they know what is going to happen ahead of time or the thought sense e.g. they have already deduced answers to questions far faster than others? Would the context be same for all Ti users, e.g. estps could refer to the latter whilst entps would be the former. I have read somewhere on the net that the estps have the biggest numbers of complex thought and logic centres out of all the types (with my type being dead last!!) so I could imagine the latter be true in their case. If it is the former I can only assume it's their inferior Ni being analyzed by the Ti. The N is all about connections between data which is what we use to build a web either Ne or Ni style to determine what could happen, I can't see ESTPs having that big a facility with this. It's possible the analytical nature of the Ti allows Ne (possibly Ni too) connections to be identified better than their Fi counterparts but again this wouldn't really apply to STPs.

    I think Ne < Ti (and Ti > Ne) would only be Ni so far in that intuitions are determined internally in the inner world whilst introspecting (this is mostly how this occurs for me) but for an N dom like yourself the dynamics would probably allow for a more potent internal intuition which could be classified as Ni. But I'm only speculating on that part.

  6. #6
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    When you say 10 steps ahead do you mean in the prophetic sense e.g. they know what is going to happen ahead of time or the thought sense e.g. they have already deduced answers to questions far faster than others? Would the context be same for all Ti users, e.g. estps could refer to the latter whilst entps would be the former. I have read somewhere on the net that the estps have the biggest numbers of complex thought and logic centres out of all the types (with my type being dead last!!) so I could imagine the latter be true in their case. If it is the former I can only assume it's their inferior Ni being analyzed by the Ti. The N is all about connections between data which is what we use to build a web either Ne or Ni style to determine what could happen, I can't see ESTPs having that big a facility with this. It's possible the analytical nature of the Ti allows Ne (possibly Ni too) connections to be identified better than their Fi counterparts but again this wouldn't really apply to STPs.

    I think Ne < Ti (and Ti > Ne) would only be Ni so far in that intuitions are determined internally in the inner world whilst introspecting (this is mostly how this occurs for me) but for an N dom like yourself the dynamics would probably allow for a more potent internal intuition which could be classified as Ni. But I'm only speculating on that part.
    My visions usually come when I am alone introspecting as well.

  7. #7
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So it's no big secret that intuitives are known for being able to see "the big picture". In fact, many intuitives claim that they can see things that are going to happen before they even happen (not in a psychic way but in an intuitive way). So my question is this, in what way does seeing the future differ in terms of Ne and Ni? Ne users constantly report that they can see possibilities of things that could happen in the future? If so how does this work for Ne users? For instance, do you just know what possibilities could come next or do you have visions in your head of things that could happen almost like it was playing a reel of a movie in your head, except the movie was set in the future? Also I've heard that Ni users have visions of the future. What is this like for Ni users, is it just one large vision? Is it a few visions? What is this like?

    I ask this because there is a very real possibility that I use both Ne and Ni well. For instance, many times I will just know what possibilities may occur. However, many times what happens in my mind is that I have almost AMC theater screen style reels in my head of things that could happen. They are visions, and I have several of them. I will imagine a scenario and then the scenario will play in my head like a video. It's very strange. I'm trying to diagnose whether this is Ne, Ni, or some combination of functions.
    Ni types, particularly INTJs, report their premonitions/ideas as "movies" inside their heads.

    All types are capable of predicting the future, but each holds different assumptions w/r to how to do so. Ne/Si types tend to assume "straight-line" extrapolation, Ni/Se types tend to adopt a more "curvy" perspective of how things might evolve. Ti/Fe types will have a strong focus on logical consistency, and will be able to predict that "something" will "break" even if they cannot predict when. Te/Fi types will have a strong focus on process, and can see fairly quickly whether a particular process will lead to the intended result.

    With respect to "using" both Ne and Ni, I used to believe the same thing of myself, until I clarified for myself the qualitative differences between Ne and Ni. Ne is more static, as if it were based on statistical analysis and linear regression. Ni is more dynamic, based on understanding underlying functionality. For instance, see this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...01#post1990801
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So it's no big secret that intuitives are known for being able to see "the big picture". In fact, many intuitives claim that they can see things that are going to happen before they even happen (not in a psychic way but in an intuitive way). So my question is this, in what way does seeing the future differ in terms of Ne and Ni? Ne users constantly report that they can see possibilities of things that could happen in the future? If so how does this work for Ne users? For instance, do you just know what possibilities could come next or do you have visions in your head of things that could happen almost like it was playing a reel of a movie in your head, except the movie was set in the future? Also I've heard that Ni users have visions of the future. What is this like for Ni users, is it just one large vision? Is it a few visions? What is this like?

    I ask this because there is a very real possibility that I use both Ne and Ni well. For instance, many times I will just know what possibilities may occur. However, many times what happens in my mind is that I have almost AMC theater screen style reels in my head of things that could happen. They are visions, and I have several of them. I will imagine a scenario and then the scenario will play in my head like a video. It's very strange. I'm trying to diagnose whether this is Ne, Ni, or some combination of functions.
    Strictly speaking, for Ne users, what we will likely experience isn't so much seen the future, rather, a retroactive delusion that we have already predicted what ended up happening, simply because there's a very good chance that we will remember having thought of the possibility that ended up truly happening via association, while not having any associations to all the possibilities you thought of that didn't happen.

    That's being said, I am inclined to believe that Ne and Ni have a naturally wide overlap: both functions take patterns, the difference is that Ne then goes to connect those patterns with our internal collection of patterns to breed new patterns, Ni gravitates towards the present pattern-source to collect and connect more patterns about it.

    I believe that as we grow older, we naturally tend to compensate, and the overlap grows wider:
    with Ne doms, the development of our inferior Si has a calming affect that allows our minds to become more comfortable and settled, and as such as can stay focused on the pattern longer before our minds zig zag away.
    as Ni doms mature, they will often externalize their collection of patterns through the engagement of inferior Se, allowing them to form new patterns through it.

    FYI - your previous avatar was better.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Strictly speaking, for Ne users, what we will likely experience isn't so much seen the future, rather, a retroactive delusion that we have already predicted what ended up happening, simply because there's a very good chance that we will remember having thought of the possibility that ended up truly happening via association, while not having any associations to all the possibilities you thought of that didn't happen.
    I don't experience this. Even if I do not remember the content of the inaccurate prediction I will remember that I made inaccurate predictions and can estimate roughly how different it was from the final result. I won't declare myself right unless one of the predictions made was more or less spot on and even then I would not overlook that it was just one of many predictions. This is probably down to the individual more than the function. I would say the central delusion of Ne is that the future is even involved. I have long suspected that Ne is pure present based and not future based at all. Part of Ne's function is to see a different way the world could be laid out (as well as the abstract connections that do exist) but the brain knows for the former part that this differs from the layout of the tangible environment. To overcome this difference the Ji functions labels the alternate layout for tangible reality "future" as this would prevent the annihilation of Ne as the future could allow this different environment to exist. Basically as one failsafe to overcome cognitive dissonance which is used again and again.

    The process is probably different for Ni but the same lack of true future focus e.g. a massive framework of tangible real world data allows them to build a tower which allows them to see further across the landscape only due to higher altitude. They have a bird's eye view of what's happening down there but they aren't there seeing it for themselves and plenty of gray areas. An understanding of the present which allows a determination of the future. But I'm still working on these ideas so there may be holes in them.

    I agree with the rest of what you wrote though. I would be interested to see how a more developed Si assists Ne (I love Ne to bits and would hate to see it undermined by Si.)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I don't experience this. Even if I do not remember the content of the inaccurate prediction I will remember that I made inaccurate predictions and can estimate roughly how different it was from the final result. I won't declare myself right unless one of the predictions made was more or less spot on and even then I would not overlook that it was just one of many predictions. This is probably down to the individual more than the function. I would say the central delusion of Ne is that the future is even involved. I have long suspected that Ne is pure present based and not future based at all. Part of Ne's function is to see a different way the world could be laid out (as well as the abstract connections that do exist) but the brain knows for the former part that this differs from the layout of the tangible environment. To overcome this difference the Ji functions labels the alternate layout for tangible reality "future" as this would prevent the annihilation of Ne as the future could allow this different environment to exist. Basically as one failsafe to overcome cognitive dissonance which is used again and again.

    The process is probably different for Ni but the same lack of true future focus e.g. a massive framework of tangible real world data allows them to build a tower which allows them to see further across the landscape only due to higher altitude. They have a bird's eye view of what's happening down there but they aren't there seeing it for themselves and plenty of gray areas. An understanding of the present which allows a determination of the future. But I'm still working on these ideas so there may be holes in them.

    I agree with the rest of what you wrote though. I would be interested to see how a more developed Si assists Ne (I love Ne to bits and would hate to see it undermined by Si.)
    excellent points about pushing the Ne notions into the future in order to avoid cognitive dissonance. On this I'd only expand that i think the priority between cognitive dissonance and emotional dissonance - and the question of which stresses us more - is quite likely to be the determining factor between thinkers and feelers. In combination to your hypothesis, this would explain why many NTPs are overall more likely to push their Ne notions into the future, while many NFPs are a lot more likely to be content in maintaining their Ne notions within the world of fantasy, mythology and spirituality.

    I would say that not only is Ne not-future-oriented, but in the mechanics of how it works, it is actually past-oriented. there's a reason for why Ne and Si always come together, just as Si draws from past experience to examine the current experience, Ne draws upon past patterns to breed with the new patterns. they are both traits a memory-oriented collecting mindset, merely collecting very different kinds of objects.

    Ni and Se on the other hand, come together precisely because the underlining mechanics are both characteristic of a mindset which is present-oriented immersing mindset, and aware of the objects within the present environment, again one immersing within the patterns, while the other immersing within the present experience.

    the core difference is not one of set in stone limits (the NeSi user can certainly get immersed, while the SeNi user certainly has memories), but rather, a question of what information (both intuitive & sensory) the brain decides to prioritize as more relevant. if the MBTI dichotomy is to be believed, then we can conclude that the human evolution has answered that question through tribalism - both are needed, so let's have individuals specialized in one or the other.

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