Physiognomy Matrix (Do you see what I see?)

[xennui]

Heya,

This is my first post here, pardon any clumsiness.

So I've always noticed similarities between people since I was a kid, resemblances and 'types' that I'd point out and people are like, "You need to get your eyes checked." In the past year, between getting obsessive with MBTI and spending a lot of time browsing http://www.celebritytypes.com, it all started to click.

I've been taking the images from from their site and arranging them according to sub-types within the MBTI matrix. It's mostly visually, but also intuitive and based on what they do. To me the pattern just leaps out... to the site's owners and others I've showed it to, not so much :[ So I'm gonna try to throw some of the images up here and see if anyone else sees it.

To answer, BTW, "are you just typing serious lookers with serious lookers, small chins w/ small chins, etc?"... yeah, all valid questions, needs double-blind, etc. But if you're seeing the patterns I'm seeing, you'll notice a huge differences between like the ESTP groups and the INTJ groups.

-x

p.s. I've added notes in the images for other interested parties, and images of typed friends, if you're like "wha... who?" Them's my scribbles!

 

[Cellmold]

General patterns.....hmmm I will have a looksee.

 

[Ism]

I noticed that a lot of the men were politicians or historical figures, and a lot of the women were present-day celebrities.

ESFP had a more youthful look, in general. ESTP had an intensity. ESFJ, INFP, INTJ, and ENTJ didn't really say much overall for me.

What do you think you see in common?

 

[UniqueMixture]

I see the patterns you see between the PEOPLE, but I don't think you're corresponding to personality correctly

 

[Cellmold]

I see the patterns you see between the PEOPLE, but I don't think you're corresponding to personality correctly

Although I must admit, those ESFJ's have the same chin as me.

 

[xennui]

> What do you think you see in common?

Well, first off, there's not "one look" per type, more like multiple breeds that that correlate / can be put in to each MBTI 'box'. Second, it's a "whole is more than some of the parts thing," and voice / movement / expression play in to it too, though what I seem to see is not personality and culture defining voice/expression but those things being as much a result of an initial biologically based progam, a template, an identifiable root pattern beneath the effects of culture, environment and the wear of time.

Let's look at the ESTP's. (I mostly deal w/ Caucasian males so they're easiest to type for me. And make-up obscures to much, I don't visually type women well).

When I look at the "Bulldog corner," (Johnson, Jackson, Churchill, Patton and Roosevelts), to me they have the same base facial structure, expression, pose... their mouths, that life-embraceing hunch like they're ready to spring or charge. You could totally pin the posture to personality, but to me the physcial and posture, the way the all position their lips, their scowls, it all reads as attributes of the same program. Like they're Mr. Potato head with different parts, that's how pattered it reads to me.

Compare them with the face-punchees, people like Bush, Carnegee, Camera, Berlusconi... them dudes read like liars to me. More that just the self satisfied smirk, there's a directness to their gaze (Se), a special smirk, it coordinates with the roundness of the face, the same hairlines or patterns of receding... <sigh> these are straws I'm pointing at in a haystack of coordinated subtleties that scream out to me and if no-one's recognizing them but me, I could just be mad. I understand, but I press on.

So let's compare some cross-MBTI groups. Because like, "Yeah, but masculine thin INTJ's are gonna look like masuline, thin ESFJ's. You're just sorting based on superficial similarties." is what people see, fo' sho'.

Check out the top-left corner of the INTJ's, the "Supreme System Viewer" look; Schiller, Augustus \, Newton, Fischer, Asimov. This is another row that, to me, looks like one model with slightly different attributes, same base biological template in appearance and, I venture to guess, brain function, social type, they're variations of the same genetic/social 'expression.' Just purely visually, they have the same brow, mouth, chin, jaw, the same gaze, intensity, they're fucking taking shit apart just by looking at it.
So let's compare with some equally fine representatives of masculinity over in ESFJ; Vin Diesel, Woody Harelson, Ford, these are the best visually matches to the INTJ "System Viewer" breed. Totally different animal, though. The ESFJ has a different mouth/smile structure, dimpled chins are rare, eyes tend to be a bit smaller and more sunken, with the brow slanting more downwards towards the outside. Lips are thin like some INTJ's, but the upper one is thinner and tends to be more pursed. Eyes look directly at you, wanting to engage, but in a more cautious, approval, wanting-to-connect way. Even Krugmen, one of the friendliest and least death-gaze looking INTJ's, reads as more of the piercing ENTP playful gaze than the cautious-yet-friendly stare of the ESFJ.


I'm making statements here that come from experience dealing with types, and a lot of just watching and observing because that's preferable to dealing with them. It's a structure that's coming together but still rather gooey in my head so I'm not positing (yet), just throwing down my tea leaves

 

[Cellmold]

Want some faces to look at?

 

[xennui]

Want some faces to look at?

Sure! I'm not gonna claim to be super-accurate, I'm becoming more convinced that movement is a part of it. I'm tripping on this; The Real Reason for Brains.

But yes, I'll love a bank of faces with personality info to test my theory, if that's what you're getting at. I can't do it w/ sorting flashcards made from celebritytypes.com, know those too well and it wouldn't be double-blind.

So, erm... watcha' got? Happy Hollydaze.

-x

 

[Cellmold]

Sure! I'm not gonna claim to be super-accurate, I'm becoming more convinced that movement is a part of it. I'm tripping on this; The Real Reason for Brains.

But yes, I'll love a bank of faces with personality info to test my theory, if that's what you're getting at. I can't do it w/ sorting flashcards made from celebritytypes.com, know those too well and it wouldn't be double-blind.

So, erm... watcha' got? Happy Hollydaze.

-x

Happy Crispmax to you too! Ok here's some whoring:

 

[xennui]

Hmmm, tough. Your face didn't scream a type to me right off. After comparing and-head scratching I'm gonna put you as an INFJ? Your chin temps me to say INFP but it may just be Irish. And I get an overall feel from it like Daniel Radcliff which would put it to ENFP (so they say, I think he's more INFP). But I dunno, when I apply my prime method which is putting you next to spreads of faces and moving things around until it resonates, your eyes tell me INFJ.

So, 1st guess is INFJ.
Second guess is xNFP.

Am I close?


I don't have a matrix done for INFJ, but Woodrow Wilson clicks. If you're xNFP, I've put you on my ENFP matrix with Radcliffe and Hunter S. Thompson;

 

[Orangey]

Hmmm...almost. I'd say that the ESFP group is contaminated with a majority of young ESFJs (it seems like you chose them because they were young, but the face is more ESFJ), and the ENTJ is filled with a lot of ESTJs. Also, I feel like people like Ellen and Robin Williams have more in common facially than either do with the rest of the group, and I'd classify them as ENFP.

 

[Cellmold]

Hmmm, tough. Your face didn't scream a type to me right off. After comparing and-head scratching I'm gonna put you as an INFJ? Your chin temps me to say INFP but it may just be Irish. And I get an overall feel from it like Daniel Radcliff which would put it to ENFP (so they say, I think he's more INFP). But I dunno, when I apply my prime method which is putting you next to spreads of faces and moving things around until it resonates, your eyes tell me INFJ.

So, 1st guess is INFJ.
Second guess is xNFP.

Am I close?


I don't have a matrix done for INFJ, but Woodrow Wilson clicks. If you're xNFP, I've put you on my ENFP matrix with Radcliffe and Hunter S. Thompson;

That's really interesting actually. A lot of people typed me and I identified as INFJ for a long while. INFP was something I had considered before on forums such as Perc.

Funny that you should mention Woodrow Wilson as well. I remember learning about him many years ago in various history classes and I actually quite liked the man, or rather, I liked his historical appearance as he was presented to me. Of course I have no idea of the bias of those who taught me.

 

[xennui]

Hmmm...almost. I'd say that the ESFP group is contaminated with a majority of young ESFJs (it seems like you chose them because they were young, but the face is more ESFJ), and the ENTJ is filled with a lot of ESTJs.

Can you give me some specifics? I'll try re-arranging and re-posting.

Also, I feel like people like Ellen and Robin Williams have more in common facially than either do with the rest of the group, and I'd classify them as ENFP.

I'll scoot those around too and see what I get. I have them as ENFP's as is everyone on that spread. The 'Towards INFP' label just means that facially they veer towards INFP to me. But yeah, I agree that I could be wrong even about the lack of E-ness. I look at even current pictures of Sissy Spacek and there's no Introvert there, she's feisty!

 

[xennui]

That's really interesting actually. A lot of people typed me and I identified as INFJ for a long while. INFP was something I had considered before on forums such as Perc.

Squeeeee! [Does happy dance.] I know very few INFJ's, y'all are the rarest of them all. The only person I'm pretty sure is INFJ is my sister who's a bully-for-jesus. I was actually kind of relieved when she finally decided I was too wicked to have further contact with. I've never heard a bad thing about Woodrow Wilson. Please don't hit me over the head :[

I identified as INFJ for a long while.

Wait--so what do you identify as now?

 

[Cellmold]

Squeeeee! [Does happy dance.] I know very few INFJ's, y'all are the rarest of them all. The only person I'm pretty sure is INFJ is my sister who's a bully-for-jesus. I was actually kind of relieved when she finally decided I was too wicked to have further contact with. I've never heard a bad thing about Woodrow Wilson. Please don't hit me over the head :[

'A bully for Jesus' possibly one of the best terms ive heard all year lol.

Wait--so what do you identify as now?

Oh..well actually now I feel a bit guilty because I was going to stop doing this, but..it's a bit in the air at the moment. I suppose im not sure of my own understanding so I subordinate it to others, but the trouble with that is that each person can experience you differently, so you end up being every type under the MBTI sun.

Latest prediction was ExFJ of some kind, with more leaning towards ESFJ than ENFJ.

 

[xennui]

Latest prediction was ExFJ of some kind, with more leaning towards ESFJ than ENFJ.

Huh... yeah, you were tripping on Woody Harrelson's chin so I started you off with the ESFJ's but that just made me cry, "My patterns are lies and delusions!" and I kept shuffling, so I'm glad I at least got somewhere in your very wide spectrum... maybe you're an xxxx? <lol> Du bist der Ãœbermensch!

each person can experience you differently

Yeah, only you can really assess your own type, so long as you have a good MBTI or whatever type test. And are in a reasonably quiet frame of mind where you can answer as you are, not as you wish/feel you should be. As I understand it, you don't really change type much with time. Small changes, like my sister says she's definitely become more F after having kids, and I've noticed it. But she's still T enough to be very bothered by that fact ;P

So what about your enneagram, do you feel that's spot-on? And is it self-tested or others' opinions? MBTI is kinda lacking in resolution, I'm gonna have to learn ennagrams some day.

 

[Cellmold]

Yeah, only you can really assess your own type, so long as you have a good MBTI or whatever type test. And are in a reasonably quiet frame of mind where you can answer as you are, not as you wish/feel you should be. As I understand it, you don't really change type much with time. Small changes, like my sister says she's definitely become more F after having kids, and I've noticed it. But she's still T enough to be very bothered by that fact ;P

So what about your enneagram, do you feel that's spot-on? And is it self-tested or others' opinions? MBTI is kinda lacking in resolution, I'm gonna have to learn ennagrams some day.

To be honest I haven't even scratched the surface of enneagram. Mainly because I just took a glance at 6w7 and then at the instinctual variants and thought: "Yep, that sounds familiar, seems like me" and that was it.

MBTI never jumped out with such clarity. Sadly it's too easy to appropriate the information of MBTI, (especially cognitive functions), to any context; but I believe that is the point of them in the first place. I think it was meant to explain how people come to their conclusions using the information they take in. Why some can reach the same conclusions but in different ways. But also how people filter this information in the first place, the processing of it that goes on automatically, before we're even aware of the thought, the idea.

Then, of course, there is the "we're all a bunch of special people lets respect each other" element. Which is a nice sentiment I suppose. I probably find enneagram more....relatable because it starts with the negatives and talks about your motivations and flaws which you can get trapped in.

As opposed to MBTI which is like a rampant hug fest, not that I dislike hug fests.

As for trusting to my own self-typing. Well I long ago realised on forums such as these that keeping your type a secret is better than making it public. Unconscious, (as well as conscious), bias exists in all of us and having a type is just one more element for that to latch onto.

The intent in it's creation was sound, but the usage by others since is not.

 

[Folderol]

I have mixed opinions on this kind of thing.

On one hand, I don't know if you know but socionics directly incorporates facial structure/posture/etc into personality. I believe that there is something to it too, I mean if we all use these different cognitive processes so often, there are probably external patterns (giveaways) on us. There might be a link. And what about that expression, "Eyes are the window to the soul?" Maybe there is something to that.

On the other hand these pictures a LOT of celebrities. Yes, I realize that it's the best way to present the data (people we know), but who here is doing the typing!? Julia Roberts ESTP? I heard she was INFP. Same with Lady Gaga. And then you need to realize how similar we ALL look - hair color, eyes, skin, etc. Humans naturally look like each other, just we notice and nitpick from socializing. So when you get into showing examples to back up the first point, doing it like this is prone for a lot of error. If you are going to do tests or draw conclusions from types, you better make sure the people involved are completely sure and confident of what they are. Otherwise you can start throwing around inaccurate images/things that support your data but could support it in a different way since it's not correlated at all.

 

[xennui]

I don't know if you know but socionics

Yeah, that's partly what got me more in to this, in addition to having always pointed out people's similarities that no one else sees. I actually let go of socionics pretty quickly b/c their descriptions seemed way to stereotyped and didn't quite match anyway. That was before I knew their system's letters don't always mean the same as MBTI, though the have like 3 different letter/symbol systems--to complicated to be useful to the core purpose of my studies, which is just to understand people better because most peoples' motivations and values seem alien and, er, kind of absurd to me.

On the other hand these pictures a LOT of celebrities.

That's because, as I mentioned in the post all the pictures and typing are from celebritytypes.com. It's run by a couple cats in europe, and INTJ economist and an ENTP, er, social theorist? I forget what he does. I pried, since I'm piggybacking on their work. It was staring at all those faces where it clicked for me, all that patterns I'd seen, what it meant in correlation with personality types. And it's a work in progress, they do shift types as they get better input.

"Eyes are the window to the soul?" Maybe there is something to that.

That's the strongest identifier for me, not just the eyes but the brows, the shape of the socket and the folds of the upper eyelids. INxP's often have unusual chins and ExTJ's tend to have wider, "leadership noses," but it's still the eyes that speak to me above all. And that may not all be purely physical, it may be expression too... that shit is SO subtle and hard to describe, even to one's self what exactly makes one eye's 'soul' look different than another's.

you better make sure the people involved are completely sure and confident of what they are.

Your point is valid, but we're not dealing with exact science here in the first place. I agree with enough of their typings and their approach to typing that it's a great place to start. It's a huge amount of work they've done combining the typing w/ visuals, and my building on their work itself is open to improvement even with the primary typing, I shuffle and make notes too.

Humans naturally look like each other, just we notice and nitpick from socializing.

I'm anti-social and fortunately have little need to worry about my monkey status, so I can spend all my time nitpicking and watching all the things the other monkeys don't know they do

Otherwise you can start throwing around inaccurate images/things that support your data but could support it in a different way since it's not correlated at all.

That's another reason why I'm basing on their typing and not mine, unless it's something I disagree with on a personality and[ visual level. But you're right, if this carries on it should eventually go double-blind. You are the voice of eternal scientific caution.

 

[Folderol]

That's because, as I mentioned in the post all the pictures and typing are from celebritytypes.com.

I totally missed where you said that. Hey, at least you can't take any blame now! lol

That's the strongest identifier for me, not just the eyes but the brows, the shape of the socket and the folds of the upper eyelids. INxP's often have unusual chins and ExTJ's tend to have wider, "leadership noses," but it's still the eyes that speak to me above all. And that may not all be purely physical, it may be expression too... that shit is SO subtle and hard to describe, even to one's self what exactly makes one eye's 'soul' look different than another's.

I was going to go on a tangent about how you could type/predict somebody based on their expression but then I realized I was getting into an area like racism. *Angry mob with pitchforks: They have a defined nose... ESTJ! They've been masquerading around here as something they're not! Fakes! Phonies! Liars! Cheats! and Girl 1: How can I infiltrate an INTP meeting, as an ISFJ? Girl 2: You could get a chinjob! Or use prosthetics.

Your point is valid, but we're not dealing with exact science here in the first place.

That's true. I think I was just trying to provide both sides of the coin though from my perspective.