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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think this is a good thread, the idea that type and being true to type means being one dimensionally or stereotypically a particular descriptive outline of conceptualised cognitive functions is balls. Its doubly balls the sorts of inferior/superior definitions of specific types which go on too.

    Although I'd hesitate to go with the idea of a dynamic typology which suggests that there is a life course or cycle in which at some stage everyone experiences every type or people migrate along from being one type to its opposite and back again like some kind of eternity's caterpiller-crysilis-butterfly-crysilis-caterpiller.

    I do think that there are dynamics within types though, the comprehension of a holistic version of self involving this is seriously lacking. Sometimes I think its the superficial way in which some quizes and sources have been interpreted by their readers, other times a more basic group dynamic thing which could be reproduced with any other sort of source material whether it was magic cards, star trek, politics, videogames.

    I remember back to the discussion about Erich Fromm and the idea, repeated a lot in discussions I've had elsewhere, that he was obviously a feeler because of the importance he placed upon feeling, on deterministic affect vs. rational cognition or the cultural significance repression of feeling and negative trends at the opposite extreme he was only seeing the first hints of back when he was alive. The idea that he was a thinker who thought a lot about feeling because it wasnt innate to him isnt something a lot of people tend to agree with.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think this is a good thread, the idea that type and being true to type means being one dimensionally or stereotypically a particular descriptive outline of conceptualised cognitive functions is balls. Its doubly balls the sorts of inferior/superior definitions of specific types which go on too.

    Although I'd hesitate to go with the idea of a dynamic typology which suggests that there is a life course or cycle in which at some stage everyone experiences every type or people migrate along from being one type to its opposite and back again like some kind of eternity's caterpiller-crysilis-butterfly-crysilis-caterpiller.

    I do think that there are dynamics within types though, the comprehension of a holistic version of self involving this is seriously lacking. Sometimes I think its the superficial way in which some quizes and sources have been interpreted by their readers, other times a more basic group dynamic thing which could be reproduced with any other sort of source material whether it was magic cards, star trek, politics, videogames.

    I remember back to the discussion about Erich Fromm and the idea, repeated a lot in discussions I've had elsewhere, that he was obviously a feeler because of the importance he placed upon feeling, on deterministic affect vs. rational cognition or the cultural significance repression of feeling and negative trends at the opposite extreme he was only seeing the first hints of back when he was alive. The idea that he was a thinker who thought a lot about feeling because it wasnt innate to him isnt something a lot of people tend to agree with.

  3. #23
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    (For the sake of brevity and my own sanity and the fact that I can only work with what I know, I am focusing on the NFP-STJ system for my examples.)

    If we start with the functions at the most basic level, then we have them as points floating in space:



    Taken this way, the functions are defined by isolated data points. Fi is about an internal set of values, Ne is about exploring possibilities, Si collects data and relates it to the past, and Te organizes ideas.


    This is a very limited way of viewing the system, and so the idea that they must be interconnected appears:



    Which brings in mind the idea that these functions are merely a spectrum, and that our abilities fall somewhere along this line... And there they sit.


    However, I think a more balanced view of these things would be to consider them as a polarity system. I think we often view our four main functions in terms of what we like and dislike. We love/prefer/embrace our dominant and auxillary functions, and consider our tertiary and inferior functions as our bad/shadow self only. Viewing them in this way makes it seem as if our 3rd/4th functions are a problem that needs to be solved, or a secret that should be swept under the rug. Problems are things that have end points and can actually be solved. Whereas polarities are something that are ongoing and need to be managed.

    A simplistic look at a polarity we all have is that of breathing:



    It would be detrimental to our health to go too far in either upper quadrant, and so we spend most of our lives mindlessly traversing this path like an ice skater with endless energy.

    I think the same concept can be applied to the cognitive function spectrums:



    The purple butterfly represents the ideal path of necessary motion that must be undertaken in order to reap the full benefits of cognition and content creation. Problems arise when we want to stay forever up in the quardrant of our choice. What goes up comes down, and eventually we sink into the negative aspects of our preference. This is uncomfortable and is a sign that we need to move over to the opposite pole in order to provide relief.

    A Ne dom/aux that has gone too far off into the ocean of possibilities, will have lost sight of the shore of Si. What is often the case is that the island of Si looks like a boring jut of rocks with no trees and no coconuts and should therefore be avoided as long as possible. When the tides inevitably bring the boat to the shore, the positives of such an interaction will be outweighed by the perceived negatives, and the Ne-er leaps out again into the ocean. This action causes further sinking into the negatives of Ne, rather than boosting back into the positives.

    In a perfect system, they would start paddling back to the island to verify their information is true before heading out in a new direction. The return to the island would provide real data and a new focus for further exploration. It would also give a chance for rest from constant searching, and the ability to look at the ocean with fresh eyes.

    My idea here is that this helps represent why we are supposed to develop and manifest the full spectrum of each function as we get older and work towards having a balanced system. I think there can be a fear that if we embrace that opposite side of ourselves, that we will lose the purity of what we think makes us great. When instead the opposite pole serves primarily to enhance the primary.


    This is my short and simple overview. I can, far too easily, expand outward on any of these points if anyone wishes to discuss this with me.
    As someone that is completely new toall this I could understand and actually relate my own vascillating(?) To this particular comparison very well. Ie. Enlightened if you will
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think this is a good thread, the idea that type and being true to type means being one dimensionally or stereotypically a particular descriptive outline of conceptualised cognitive functions is balls. Its doubly balls the sorts of inferior/superior definitions of specific types which go on too.

    Although I'd hesitate to go with the idea of a dynamic typology which suggests that there is a life course or cycle in which at some stage everyone experiences every type or people migrate along from being one type to its opposite and back again like some kind of eternity's caterpiller-crysilis-butterfly-crysilis-caterpiller.

    I do think that there are dynamics within types though, the comprehension of a holistic version of self involving this is seriously lacking. Sometimes I think its the superficial way in which some quizes and sources have been interpreted by their readers, other times a more basic group dynamic thing which could be reproduced with any other sort of source material whether it was magic cards, star trek, politics, videogames.

    I remember back to the discussion about Erich Fromm and the idea, repeated a lot in discussions I've had elsewhere, that he was obviously a feeler because of the importance he placed upon feeling, on deterministic affect vs. rational cognition or the cultural significance repression of feeling and negative trends at the opposite extreme he was only seeing the first hints of back when he was alive. The idea that he was a thinker who thought a lot about feeling because it wasnt innate to him isnt something a lot of people tend to agree with.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Drive-by posting

    Dario's 8 Keys to Self-Leadership has a discussion of synthesizing and using 'opposing' cognitive functions together. It's fairly shallow, but it might be worth a look.
    Another drive-by posting to elaborate on your drive-by posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post

    Engage Processes in Tandem for Powerful Results


    Each of the cognitive processes can be used with its opposite in a tandem relationship.
    At first a process and its “opposite” may feel in tension with each other, but with practice you will discover ways to use them together effectively.

    As you develop a process, you can draw on the examples below to enhance your use and create powerful results.

    Extraverted Sensing

    We can get powerful results using extraverted Sensing in tandem with introverted Intuiting. We can be very tuned in to the surrounding environment, with anticipation of what’s coming next. We may constantly read our industry’s current news to be sure to catch the next wave of innovations. Or we can engage people in fun activities, drawing them out and helping them transform themselves. We might pull a shy person onto the dance floor, convinced that there is an inner dancer waiting to be released; that person experiences his or her potential firsthand. Or we might shape the current context to what we envision it can be, like a sculptor who can “see” the final statue within a chunk of marble and sculpts everything else away to get to it.

    Introverted Sensing
    We can get impressive results using introverted Sensing in tandem with extraverted Intuiting. We might have a keen awareness of what has come before and link that knowledge to what might be. This might involve drawing upon a wealth of past experience and sifting through what is known to discover patterns; for example, researching the history of a place in great detail to solve a lingering mystery. We might use allegories from traditional fantasy to pass on important standards and values to the next generation, or read mystery novels as a way to relax from the daily grind of work. A little imagination, fantasy, or humor can lighten our daily routine or help make a long-term relationship more enjoyable. Seeing positive possibilities also reassures us when a situation is unstable.

    Extraverted Intuiting
    We can get impressive results using extraverted Intuiting in tandem with introverted Sensing. We might interpret the meaning of a situation by relating it to images from the past. We see a pattern in the present moment, and in addition to imagining alternative scenarios we draw upon our memories of the past. This recollection enables us to explore many more situations at once. Similarly, an academic researcher might do extensive research and book study of those who have come before while exploring a theoretical problem. We might embrace the convenience of supportive institutions so that we can live more freely in a world of ideas. We might even dream up a novel way to do something and then establish it as a new tradition or reliable standard for society.

    Introverted Intuiting
    We can get impressive results using introverted Intuiting in tandem with extraverted Sensing. We might try out various tangible experiences and activities to catalyze realizations for growth. The more varied and undigested experiences one has, the more material there is for the unconscious to draw upon. We might look inward to envision how we can transform something, then gather data and take actions to realize that goal—to make real what is envisioned. For example, we might visualize how people will one day journey into space, and then take the actions necessary to design and build a spaceship to accomplish that goal. This might take many years of action, including activities to sustain the vision. Another tandem relationship involves engaging in a physical activity so that body, mind, and environment merge to become one, perhaps experiencing a great sense of calm or energy.

    Extraverted Thinking

    We can get impressive results using extraverted Thinking in tandem with introverted Feeling. We might sequence and prioritize based on objective measures while following beliefs about what’s important. If there isn’t enough time in the day to do everything we want, we may select those things that matter most to us. Or perhaps, while trying to make a decision, we discover that the available evidence isn’t enough to convince us one way or another. Until we get more evidence, we go with what we believe to be true. Being in touch with what we believe in motivates us to use willpower and to follow a procedure or task through to completion. We might structure an organization or system to be as fair as possible, honoring individual identities.

    Introverted Thinking
    We can get impressive results using introverted Thinking in tandem with extraverted Feeling. We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.

    Extraverted Feeling
    We can get impressive results using extraverted Feeling in tandem with introverted Thinking. We can connect with others by following guidelines about appropriate behavior. We may follow principles of fair play or the Golden Rule—a general framework for all our transactions with others. We might locate leverage points in a situation to help everyone get what they need in the most affirming and fair way possible, or leverage our range of social contacts to get help or to interact with someone we wouldn’t normally have access to. Or we might mediate a dispute between two parties: we observe from multiple angles to fully see every side and give a fair hearing as we fit their claims with a framework to arrive at a decision.

    Introverted Feeling
    We can get impressive results using introverted Feeling in tandem with extraverted Thinking. We can stay true to our beliefs by structuring our lives and standing firm with what’s important. We might decide against purchasing a particular product that harms the environment, and then arrange our lives or the organization we lead to make do without it. We might refer to evidence and empirical reasoning to support what we believe is true. Maybe we hold fast to the idea that all people bring useful gifts to society, then construct a sorter or a metric and gather data to demonstrate this value. Or we might use time-management and spatial organization skills to better follow through on important commitments and worthwhile projects.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    As well, not every situation requires the same amount of time or effort, or even access to all functions in order to be solved, and balance in this instance would actually be red-tape. These graphs would be fine as a kind of service to brainstorming; which, from the beginning seems like its intention. I see Ne bias.

    So, if balance could be equated to this system it isn't based on a time, but on force.
    Ne bias how so?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In my thinking and observations, I've found it easier to make typology explain things by describing the lines you've drawn as entities in and of themselves. Individuals, however, tend to dwell at one pole or another of the entity. Perhaps envision bar magnets:



    Each magnet is an entity (Te-Fi, Ne-Si) the individual uses. (Note how the i/e can indicate the polarity of the magnets, such that Fi attracts to Ne, and Te attracts to Si.)

    An individual tends to usually have the magnets arranged as in the above picture, focusing on just two of the poles and integrating them. Some rare individuals might be more like "monopoles", ignoring the other entity almost entirely (but never completely).

    Jung's concept of integration, then, could be likened to figuring out how to arrange the bar magnets more like this:




    Note that both systems are "balanced". Two bar magnets can simply snap into place in either of these arrangements. The first arrangement is more likely, the second arrangement is more stable. The first arrangement snaps in place early in life. The second arrangement snaps into place later, but the snapping itself (in both cases) can be stressful.

    I don't think of the mind as "wandering around" in that balanced butterfly path between these. Rather, the mind "is" the arrangement. Perceptions, thoughts, and ideas wander around the magnetic field lines.

    Does this align (pun intended) with your concept of a "polarity system"?
    I like this, and as I said, I will get back more later... But question! Is one set of these magnets supposed to be labeled T/F? (Edit: LOL!! Omg, I am such a dork. It didn't even occur to me that the S/N was supposed to be for North/South. HAHAAHAHAH!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    There's different kinds of balance. Static balance, and dynamic balance.

    Static balance is like putting an equal weight on each end of a pivot point. Sure it's balanced, but you can't do anything to it without unbalancing it.

    Dynamic balance is like the wings on a plane. If the wings are perfectly rigid, they will snap right off the plane in flight. The wings must be able to flex. If they flex the wrong way, you get resonance and the plane shakes itself apart. If they flex too much you get no lift, or if you pull a high G turn they once again will snap off.

    So the balance is to find a wing that is not too weak and not too strong either and is able to withstand a full spectrum of turbulence and forces.

    Or even compare to a human standing up. Standing is more of a controlled wobble with your brain doing many adjustments per second that you aren't even aware of. And walking is more like a series of short falls and recoveries.
    My concept aligns better with what you are saying about dynamic balance.
    Last edited by Anew Leaf; 12-11-2012 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #28
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    Yes, yes, yes....

    MBTI was built upon C.G. Jung's theories that were built upon Newton's law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This means someone has a preferred function, and in essence, neglects the opposite. This is one of the best ways to also type someone. We even "project" what we don't like about our inferior side onto others. For example, one of the biggest stressors for me as an INTP is someone getting all emotional on me & expecting me to show some emotions in return.
    Jung thought that if someone spent enough time in their inferior state, they could become an "individuated" person. (Someone whom has grown enough to use their inferior side in a positive way.) He also thought we used our auxillary functions to help us to return to our normal state of mind.

    I have said this several times on this site, and I stand by it! This book rocks! It is ALL about what you are talking about...AND is written by an INFP. So, they may make you wanna read it more!

    http://www.amazon.com/Was-That-Reall.../dp/0891061703
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    http://www.spaceandmotion.com/

  9. #29
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    This leads off from the 16-bit basemap that is the 16 types and that if you are one specific type and you react to others then the others are a part of you that you separated from.
    More simple is the look at the Functions, Develop you shadow functions.

    Point is equality.

    Physiologically there is a veil over reality because the eGO goes and gets attracted to the polarity of self-knowledge as self-validation.

    The basic common sense that, if you are clearly defined as being one type with dominant functions then it's your responsibility to develop your other functions, specially the 3rd and 4th.


    About the breath there is an incorrection... The point between the in-breath and the out-breath is the point of crossover were all is seen. The point of infinity.

    About the wave frenquency.
    All matter is subject to and creates frequency. That's called resonance. Currently all matter is in a stable state of resonance, that is called physical expression.
    So, likewise the breath is the wave that allows the human body to resonate and generate its internal energy that sustains itself.
    Intricately; the Oxygen allows the chemical reactions to occur, IF there is no breath awareness then one does not give any power to the body to exist, but instead one powers the mind of thoughts feelings and emotions.

    This writings intend to introduce new vocabulary to your... DNA. It is not expected that you understand then with the mind., but it is expected that you read them and integrate them to DNA cell memory, in order to in the future being able to understand the simplicity of what LIFE expression really is.

    Meaning... Warning! 'The tree of knowledge of good and evil (polarity) is not the tree of Life of self-expression!!!!!!!!!!'
    LIFE is the expression of SELF within and as Oneness and Equality

  10. #30
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    Ok, before I dive into the various posts here... I am going to flesh out a bit more on my original concept and showcase what my idea of an imbalanced system can start to look like.



    The idea is that when the system is imbalanced there is a spiral butterfly effect going on. The person starts off fine in their natural realm of Ne, but then goes so far that they dip into the negative aspects of Ne. There can be a desire to check ones self naturally over the opposite to acheive balance. However, if the opposite function is perceived as all negative, then the natural balancing aspects of the system can be taken as negatives and as a result the line dips too fast into the actual negatives. Then there is the fear response shift back over to the natural quadrant, however the original issues are still present (ie, that quadrant is not operating up to full capacity) and the line dips down back into the negative quadrant again... etc.


    Maybe this is where the judgement functions operate their best. I was thinking earlier today that maybe the judgements are a system of locks and dams that direct the streams of information.

    Edit: I see what is being said about the labels "balanced" and "imbalanced" now. Hmm. What would be a more accurate label for each side? I'm off reading about negative feedback loops and equilibrium.

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