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  1. #11
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    I don't think it should be presented as positive and negative necessarily.

    You used breathing which is a nice comparison, but I wonder if comparing it to a negative feedback loop would be more appropriate.*

    Another note - I think two graphs would be an easier way to grasp balanced perception vs imbalanced, they are technically opposite, but I don't believe they belong on the same scale.

    (*For those who don't know what that is exactly:

    The body is designed to be aware of when excess of some chemical is present and when that occurs it stops the production of that chemical. It isn't necessarily "negative" it is specifically to counter-balance this idea of excess.)
    I am glad that the breathing example proved useful!

    I hadn't considered negative feedback loop. I need to research this... To the Observatory!! (*is in type 5 wing mode*)

    Also, are you saying that it would be best to split the SiNE example into two separate graphs for Si and Ne alone?

  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I've been telling it to him for years, and he's finally starting to get it.
    I'm thinking the "swings" would be more of an instantaneous variety. Moving around the purple butterfly is like that whatsit, the locating an electron, or a quark, or whichever one of those jiggers makes certainty of physics in one dimension decrease certainty in another. I suppose if that has to be the metaphor, then we're talking consciousness rather than certainty: increased conscious awareness of one part of the butterfly requires decreased conscious awareness of the opposite part. But for there to be consciousness at all, there has to be spin--a cycle around the butterfly.


    /coherence
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #13
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I am glad that the breathing example proved useful!

    I hadn't considered negative feedback loop. I need to research this... To the Observatory!! (*is in type 5 wing mode*)

    Also, are you saying that it would be best to split the SiNE example into two separate graphs for Si and Ne alone?
    I think two graphs, one showing imbalance and the other balance would make more sense. Because I don't think unbalance is something to be shown with the same "butterfly" as imbalance still floats towards the positive traits, it is just erratic.
    Last edited by ReflecTcelfeR; 12-10-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  4. #14
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I think balance can't really apply here. The most "balanced" part of the butterfly is the center, where neither aspect of perception is emphasized. But if the butterfly represents change in cognition, then this lack of emphasis is lack of change. The center is where cognition stops, not where some mystical equal awareness pops into being.

    Ideally, attention cycles around the quadrants, driven forwards and backwards into that figure eight, by forces of attraction and repulsion that variously increase and decrease as "thought" comes more into existence (aka "moves away from the center").

    The forces are two. They are simple, fundamental drives toward an inner zero and an outer infinity. Without both, self consciousness cannot appear. They probably arise as simple results of the existence of memory (and thus a disconnect between outer and inner experience) and the existence of sensation (and thus a connection to the outer).
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #15
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    I think two graphs, one showing unbalance and the other balance would make more sense. Because I don't think unbalance is something to be shown with the same "butterfly" as unbalance still floats towards the positive traits, it is just erratic.
    Oh, I see what you are saying.

    I actually had given thought to this but never made the graph for it. I am busy today, but I'll work on it tomorrow.

  6. #16
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    There's different kinds of balance. Static balance, and dynamic balance.

    Static balance is like putting an equal weight on each end of a pivot point. Sure it's balanced, but you can't do anything to it without unbalancing it.

    Dynamic balance is like the wings on a plane. If the wings are perfectly rigid, they will snap right off the plane in flight. The wings must be able to flex. If they flex the wrong way, you get resonance and the plane shakes itself apart. If they flex too much you get no lift, or if you pull a high G turn they once again will snap off.

    So the balance is to find a wing that is not too weak and not too strong either and is able to withstand a full spectrum of turbulence and forces.

    Or even compare to a human standing up. Standing is more of a controlled wobble with your brain doing many adjustments per second that you aren't even aware of. And walking is more like a series of short falls and recoveries.

  7. #17
    garbage
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    Drive-by posting

    Dario's 8 Keys to Self-Leadership has a discussion of synthesizing and using 'opposing' cognitive functions together. It's fairly shallow, but it might be worth a look.

  8. #18
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I think balance can't really apply here. The most "balanced" part of the butterfly is the center, where neither aspect of perception is emphasized. But if the butterfly represents change in cognition, then this lack of emphasis is lack of change. The center is where cognition stops, not where some mystical equal awareness pops into being.

    Ideally, attention cycles around the quadrants, driven forwards and backwards into that figure eight, by forces of attraction and repulsion that variously increase and decrease as "thought" comes more into existence (aka "moves away from the center").

    The forces are two. They are simple, fundamental drives toward an inner zero and an outer infinity. Without both, self consciousness cannot appear. They probably arise as simple results of the existence of memory (and thus a disconnect between outer and inner experience) and the existence of sensation (and thus a connection to the outer).
    As well, not every situation requires the same amount of time or effort, or even access to all functions in order to be solved, and balance in this instance would actually be red-tape. These graphs would be fine as a kind of service to brainstorming; which, from the beginning seems like its intention. I see Ne bias.

    So, if balance could be equated to this system it isn't based on a time, but on force.

  9. #19
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    is this using typology to try and approximate metabolism?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #20
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    This is a very limited way of viewing the system, and so the idea that they must be interconnected appears:



    Which brings in mind the idea that these functions are merely a spectrum, and that our abilities fall somewhere along this line... And there they sit.
    In my thinking and observations, I've found it easier to make typology explain things by describing the lines you've drawn as entities in and of themselves. Individuals, however, tend to dwell at one pole or another of the entity. Perhaps envision bar magnets:



    Each magnet is an entity (Te-Fi, Ne-Si) the individual uses. (Note how the i/e can indicate the polarity of the magnets, such that Fi attracts to Ne, and Te attracts to Si.)

    An individual tends to usually have the magnets arranged as in the above picture, focusing on just two of the poles and integrating them. Some rare individuals might be more like "monopoles", ignoring the other entity almost entirely (but never completely).

    Jung's concept of integration, then, could be likened to figuring out how to arrange the bar magnets more like this:




    Note that both systems are "balanced". Two bar magnets can simply snap into place in either of these arrangements. The first arrangement is more likely, the second arrangement is more stable. The first arrangement snaps in place early in life. The second arrangement snaps into place later, but the snapping itself (in both cases) can be stressful.

    I don't think of the mind as "wandering around" in that balanced butterfly path between these. Rather, the mind "is" the arrangement. Perceptions, thoughts, and ideas wander around the magnetic field lines.

    Does this align (pun intended) with your concept of a "polarity system"?
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