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  1. #61
    Riva
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    Empathy and sympathy - is it not related to feeling?

    Emotional expressions and motivations which make the world a bit more beautiful and hopeful - is that not related to feeling?

  2. #62
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Choosing to let yourself die by not taking actions neccesarry to stay alive is not the same as "dyin of heard break".

    And again you don't need connection or relationships to live.
    http://psychology.about.com/od/lovea...tachment01.htm
    A basic bonding with parents in infancy is generally agreed to be necessary for healthy functioning. Also, infants who were neglected in the first year of life and not touched enough show severe health impacts. There is no human who doesn't need other humans, because we need our parents to survive infancy. We all start with this basic relationship, and it gives us the basic sense of relationship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    They are good but not neccesarry

    People with Asperger's syndrome are less inclined to and adept at connection and interpersonal relationships. Does that mean there health is in jeapordy?

    Why are you using a "royal we" ?
    People with Aspergers are less inclined, but that doesn't mean they are not inclined at all, or that they can't learn to function within a social context. And they still need parents.

    To restate what I said earlier: Everyone is connected to other living things, because we eat them and they eat us, and we interact with them every day. We get our oxygen from trees. We exist in interconnection. It's a fact of life. The feeling function makes us (unconsciously for you I guess) aware of this; you don't go setting fire to the forest, presumably because you think it's not smart and/or you'll get in trouble. You don't step on kittens. You dislike it when people hit you, because you value your relationship with yourself.

    People, quit nitpicking my words, please.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    http://psychology.about.com/od/lovea...tachment01.htm
    A basic bonding with parents in infancy is generally agreed to be necessary for healthy functioning. Also, infants who were neglected in the first year of life and not touched enough show severe health impacts. There is no human who doesn't need other humans, because we need our parents to survive infancy. We all start with this basic relationship, and it gives us the basic sense of relationship.



    People with Aspergers are less inclined, but that doesn't mean they are not inclined at all, or that they can't learn to function within a social context. And they still need parents.

    To restate what I said earlier: Everyone is connected to other living things, because we eat them and they eat us, and we interact with them every day. We get our oxygen from trees. We exist in interconnection. It's a fact of life. The feeling function makes us (unconsciously for you I guess) aware of this; you don't go setting fire to the forest, presumably because you think it's not smart and/or you'll get in trouble. You don't step on kittens. You dislike it when people hit you, because you value your relationship with yourself.

    People, quit nitpicking my words, please.

    The first bit leaves out the point that those people, though I'll adjusted are not dead. People can survive isolation.

    The second bit I agree with and said something to the same affect earlier in the thread.


    I was nitpicking about the royal we because I was wondering if it was your interpretation or a shared interpretation.

  4. #64
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    The first bit leaves out the point that those people, though I'll adjusted are not dead. People can survive isolation.

    The second bit I agree with and said something to the same affect earlier in the thread.


    I was nitpicking about the royal we because I was wondering if it was your interpretation or a shared interpretation.
    As for the dying bit, I was only referring to myself. And I meant it in a nonliteral way, at least at first, due to psychological suffering. (I would feel like dying.)

    I thought it was obvious what I meant, but I'll clarify again:
    Feeling function gives sense of relationship and interconnection.
    Embracing this is healthy.
    Some people, including myself, feel the connection more acutely than others.

  5. #65
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    The first bit leaves out the point that those people, though I'll adjusted are not dead. People can survive isolation.
    And this part is true after infancy; during that time it's really impossible to survive without some sort of care. True, it could come about from robots feeding you e.g. The Matrix, but people's bodies still sort of retain that feeling of being nourished as a sense of connection. If someone had no sense of connection whatsoever, they would not have it for themselves either, since that's when we learn it; they would probably avoid pain, but just because it doesn't feel good. People whose only experience of relationships have been abusive associate abusive behavior with love.

  6. #66
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I generalize it to all people in that each person has an instinct to form bonds with other living things, and we exist in a global ecosystem. Humans who do not bond securely early in life become sociopaths. Since we live in a global ecosystem, we are interdependent on other living things to survive; we eat living things, they eat us, we have territory and they have territory, if we provoke them they often attack us. We exist in a relationship with other beings whether we know and like it or not, and being aware of this fact and embracing it tends to be most conducive to health and happiness.

    The Feeling function makes us aware of these relationships and our interconnections, and allows us to make rational decisions with regard to them.
    Yes, some people use the feeling function to maintain this awareness, but other functions can be used for the same purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm talking about socialization in a very basic and fundamental sense; what do you mean?
    I agree with the outstanding explanation Uumlau already provided. To add my own thoughts: you view being cut off from all connections as unhealthy. I view it as unhealthy to be forced into connections that do more harm than good. Not all human connections have the obvious benefits you list, like nursing an infant, or a group/tribe working together to get food and defend against danger, and the ones that do are easily understood using a thinking process. The vast majority of connections, however, serve no such utilitarian purpose and are generally superfluous in our view. Involving ourselves wastes our resources to no productive end, and requires we try to be something we are not. Succumbing to this to any significant degree can easily undermine our identity, except that we are usually able to resist.

    The physiological factors you mention are real, but are less related to feeling as a function than to the generation of emotional input, just as they generate (other) physical sensory input. Emotions, then, are inevitable but how we handle them using the feeling function (or other functions) is much more individual.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #67
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, some people use the feeling function to maintain this awareness, but other functions can be used for the same purpose.
    All feeling in all senses of the word has to do with the relationship of the self to something. If we had no concept of self or other, we would have no need for emotion, since it informs us of our well-being. A negative emotion informs us of some sort of threat to us, or frustration from progress towards something we perceive as beneficial. A positive emotion tells us we perceive that we are well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I agree with the outstanding explanation Uumlau already provided. To add my own thoughts: you view being cut off from all connections as unhealthy. I view it as unhealthy to be forced into connections that do more harm than good. Not all human connections have the obvious benefits you list, like nursing an infant, or a group/tribe working together to get food and defend against danger, and the ones that do are easily understood using a thinking process. The vast majority of connections, however, serve no such utilitarian purpose and are generally superfluous in our view. Involving ourselves wastes our resources to no productive end, and requires we try to be something we are not. Succumbing to this to any significant degree can easily undermine our identity, except that we are usually able to resist.

    The physiological factors you mention are real, but are less related to feeling as a function than to the generation of emotional input, just as they generate (other) physical sensory input. Emotions, then, are inevitable but how we handle them using the feeling function (or other functions) is much more individual.
    As I have pointed out several times and will continue to do so: I am not talking about forced assimilation into social groups or society. I don't know why people keep making this assumption. I never said anything about all connections being beneficial. I said some connections are, and our interconnection in the global ecosystem is.

  8. #68
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    To restate what I said earlier: Everyone is connected to other living things, because we eat them and they eat us, and we interact with them every day. We get our oxygen from trees. We exist in interconnection. It's a fact of life. The feeling function makes us (unconsciously for you I guess) aware of this; you don't go setting fire to the forest, presumably because you think it's not smart and/or you'll get in trouble. You don't step on kittens. You dislike it when people hit you, because you value your relationship with yourself.
    You appear to be confusing the OP's meaning of "Feeling" with your own view of "feeling", which is why
    People, quit nitpicking my words, please.
    ^^ this happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    All feeling in all senses of the word has to do with the relationship of the self to something. If we had no concept of self or other, we would have no need for emotion, since it informs us of our well-being. A negative emotion informs us of some sort of threat to us, or frustration from progress towards something we perceive as beneficial. A positive emotion tells us we perceive that we are well.
    We're talking "Feeling" in the context of MBTI and Jung, and not in the much more generic context of "human beings connected together by a global ecosystem". Sentience, not "feeling" per se, and certainly not "Feeling", is what makes us aware of those connections.

    Your reasoning has some serious flaws. Drug/alcohol use can cause a positive feeling in spite of negative connections, and various kinds of neuroses can convince us that things are wrong when they're perfectly OK. And most of this has little to do with Jung's concept of Feeling.

    As I have pointed out several times and will continue to do so: I am not talking about forced assimilation into social groups or society. I don't know why people keep making this assumption.
    It was brought up because you told Coriolis that you didn't agree with her point about forced socialization. It's a parallel topic. You implied that "forced socialization" is OK by your response. That might not be what you meant, of course.

    I suspect you mean "we're interconnected no matter what" which isn't what Coriolis or I meant by "forced socialization."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #69
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You appear to be confusing the OP's meaning of "Feeling" with your own view of "feeling", which is why
    I'm pretty sure we are both talking about the Feeling function as it relates to typology. My own opinion is that it deals with what I've described, as well as what Jung says. I realize I'm adding to traditional thought, and this is my intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    We're talking "Feeling" in the context of MBTI and Jung, and not in the much more generic context of "human beings connected together by a global ecosystem". Sentience, not "feeling" per se, and certainly not "Feeling", is what makes us aware of those connections.
    ^ What I said above applies to this too. I argue that the Feeling function does apply to these things.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Your reasoning has some serious flaws. Drug/alcohol use can cause a positive feeling in spite of negative connections, and various kinds of neuroses can convince us that things are wrong when they're perfectly OK.
    Perhaps according to some interpretations; this produces the standard debate of the difference between pleasure and happiness, and how they relate to the body and the soul. I meant psychological feeling, not a physical high. And this false sense of well being still fools our bodies into thinking the drug is good for us; since natural and healthy activities produce feel-good chemicals, this is why we get addicted to drugs. It's a perversion of a natural process. Unhealthy people still have this process; it just doesn't work correctly. Like when people stay in abusive relationships because they associate the behavior with love. They know that love is good for them, and it makes them happy; they just don't know how to correctly distinguish love from abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It was brought up because you told Coriolis that you didn't agree with her point about forced socialization. It's a parallel topic. You implied that "forced socialization" is OK by your response. That might not be what you meant, of course.

    I suspect you mean "we're interconnected no matter what" which isn't what Coriolis or I meant by "forced socialization."
    Right, that is what I meant.

    I didn't say I was in favor of forced socialization. I said that proper socialization is beneficial. Proper socialization is not forced, nor does it involve conformity. It involves learning how to have healthy and functional interactions with other humans, and learning how to form healthy and functional bonds.

    I understand why some people, particularly INTJ's due to their introversion and Te-Fi would recoil from forced socialization and might read that assumption into it. I myself don't like conformity much either. You just have to understand that it is an assumption and it's annoying to have to repeat yourself.

  10. #70
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    It's been quite interesting to read through this thread, which I, (ironically), created in a funk of my own miserable state at the time.

    But how amusing and revealing that I should make up a thread with an OP full of a clarity I don't normally display nor possess. This is why it is endlessly frustrating that my normal state is one of a pleasant lie. One which is all the more dampening on my perception and analysis of the world around me because it is already so ingrained and supported in the society around me.

    I compare it to learning to ride a bike. In most western cultures, this is a rather cliche past time, which is taught to us by our parents or appropriate alternative at a young age. And like riding a bike, I started off slow with Feeling, learning my way, which values were which and what was deemed what.

    Eventually it becomes second nature; the reactions and the impulses are so catered for by society and so well trained that they become an instinctive collection of automated responses. However therein lies the danger, for I am rewarded for adhereing to the code of ethics that Feeling, (especially extraverted feeling), subscribes to. And these rewards are rich in friends and group affirmation.

    But because of these rewards I find myself even more blind. Stuck in a whirlwind of do's and dont's, pleases and thankyou's. Before I know it a cog has come loose in this automated machine and I finally see with clarity. Unfortunately this clarity is still somewhat marred by the presence of a negative emotion, but it is getting easier to train.

    When I am out of this state however people seem to want to pull me back in, with obligations and statements along the lines of: "you do not seem yourself" because apparently those around me know what my self is better than I do. I wonder if this is how many thinking types, especially intuitive thinking types, are pressured all the time?

    However soon I will be back in the fluff. And I am scared that one day I may never come out of it again. It seems a cruel fate of mind to be trapped within the social obligations of the groups around you, knowing that the only truth in such a state is the one that they set for you.

    Why do I feel inclined towards caring and niceities? Surely it would improve mine and others lives more if I could stop a moment and try to change the strings that pull at us? Or at the very least...point them out. Truely that would display more caring to those around me than blind pleasantries.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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