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  1. #51
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It's impossible for anyone to be born without a feeling function, and since we humans are social creatures a person living totally isolated from other living beings would be a messed up person indeed. I'm talking about if I had this connection and then lost it, like if I had to live in a space ship by myself. That would break my heart, and the resulting sadness would adversely affect my health, and my physical body probably would die before its time. So not necessarily false.
    Not false for you, but on what basis do you generalize this to all people? Forced socialization is just as injurious to some people.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #52
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not false for you, but on what basis do you generalize this to all people? Forced socialization is just as injurious to some people.
    I generalize it to all people in that each person has an instinct to form bonds with other living things, and we exist in a global ecosystem. Humans who do not bond securely early in life become sociopaths. Since we live in a global ecosystem, we are interdependent on other living things to survive; we eat living things, they eat us, we have territory and they have territory, if we provoke them they often attack us. We exist in a relationship with other beings whether we know and like it or not, and being aware of this fact and embracing it tends to be most conducive to health and happiness.

    The Feeling function makes us aware of these relationships and our interconnections, and allows us to make rational decisions with regard to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Forced socialization is just as injurious to some people.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm talking about socialization in a very basic and fundamental sense; what do you mean?

  3. #53
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I generalize it to all people in that each person has an instinct to form bonds with other living things, and we exist in a global ecosystem. Humans who do not bond securely early in life become sociopaths. Since we live in a global ecosystem, we are interdependent on other living things to survive; we eat living things, they eat us, we have territory and they have territory, if we provoke them they often attack us. We exist in a relationship with other beings whether we know and like it or not, and being aware of this fact and embracing it tends to be most conducive to health and happiness.
    That's one way to look at it. There are other ways to look at it that render this point of view somewhere between "untrue" and "silly." (I'm not trying to be insulting, just pointing out that your conclusion derives from very fundamental values and assumptions. Change those and the conclusions are remarkably different.)

    The Feeling function makes us aware of these relationships and our interconnections, and allows us to make rational decisions with regard to them.
    It makes YOU aware. Not so for all types of people.

    I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm talking about socialization in a very basic and fundamental sense; what do you mean?
    When everyone thinks differently from oneself, "socialization" is essentially very confusing torture: essentially, everyone else seems to tell oneself that oneself is wrong, but cannot explain "why" in terms that oneself can understand. One might be forced to relate to other beings in particularly awkward ways, but that doesn't mean that it is "good" for oneself.

    In particular, the way you are talking about human relationships will seem entirely untrue to INTJs. Why? Because, in the end, we INTJs are forced to figure out everything for ourselves, because the terms everyone else uses simply make no sense to us. There are two functions (Si and Fe) that are adept at dealing with social signals (at the group level). For INTJs, those two functions come in at #8 and #7 out of 8, according to conventional function theory. Fe pays attention to people from the perspective of society as a system, Si pays attention to how people behave in aggregate. Ni and Te reach their understandings in such a way that most concepts of "people" and "society" are nigh nonsensical.

    FWIW, I think this has more to do with the relative rarity of INTJs (and Ni in general), than it has to do with being right or wrong w/r to observations about society. Society simply doesn't organize itself along Ni or Te ways, at least insofar as most people think of society and human relationships. On the other hand, Ni and Te I believe are particularly adept at looking at things in terms of "economies" and concrete "trade-offs."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #54
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's one way to look at it. There are other ways to look at it that render this point of view somewhere between "untrue" and "silly." (I'm not trying to be insulting, just pointing out that your conclusion derives from very fundamental values and assumptions. Change those and the conclusions are remarkably different.)


    It makes YOU aware. Not so for all types of people.
    I disagree. Biology and psychology support my point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    When everyone thinks differently from oneself, "socialization" is essentially very confusing torture: essentially, everyone else seems to tell oneself that oneself is wrong, but cannot explain "why" in terms that oneself can understand. One might be forced to relate to other beings in particularly awkward ways, but that doesn't mean that it is "good" for oneself.

    In particular, the way you are talking about human relationships will seem entirely untrue to INTJs. Why? Because, in the end, we INTJs are forced to figure out everything for ourselves, because the terms everyone else uses simply make no sense to us. There are two functions (Si and Fe) that are adept at dealing with social signals (at the group level). For INTJs, those two functions come in at #8 and #7 out of 8, according to conventional function theory. Fe pays attention to people from the perspective of society as a system, Si pays attention to how people behave in aggregate. Ni and Te reach their understandings in such a way that most concepts of "people" and "society" are nigh nonsensical.

    FWIW, I think this has more to do with the relative rarity of INTJs (and Ni in general), than it has to do with being right or wrong w/r to observations about society. Society simply doesn't organize itself along Ni or Te ways, at least insofar as most people think of society and human relationships. On the other hand, Ni and Te I believe are particularly adept at looking at things in terms of "economies" and concrete "trade-offs."
    There's no person on the planet who is essentially and significantly different from everyone else. If you feel this way I think you're just being emo. Everyone can learn social skills, even INTJ's. If you haven't don't blame it on your type. And I think you are missing my point; Fi deals with relationship as well, it just focuses on personal feeling rather than collective feeling. Even if your relationship with the rest of humanity is awkward, it exists, and your Fi tells you it is awkward and needs to be improved. Also Ni sees interconnection and looks at things holistically.

  5. #55
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I disagree. Biology and psychology support my point of view.
    Argument by authority. Worse, no actual explanation of why/or how the supposed authority supports anything, which is essential to any rational debate on the topic.

    There's no person on the planet who is essentially and significantly different from everyone else.
    Depends on how you define "essentially" and "significantly". For the record, while INTJs and INFJs have a LOT in common (I get along with INFJs extremely well), but INFJs really don't understand how INTJs think. The paths of thinking are similar, but the root assumptions are different. (This is, by the way, how I differentiate between INTJ and INFJ. INFJs tend to "sound like me", but the basis of their reasoning often differs very much from my own. I'm not talking conclusions, but the steps to reach those conclusions.)

    If you feel this way I think you're just being emo.
    Yes, I'm known for being emo. I think I'll go get a tattoo now to protest society's impositions upon myself.

    (I believe you'll find the explanation of my reply should you google "projection." The core point of MBTI and Jung is that different people think differently. That if YOU had said what I had said would be "emo" does not imply that if I say it, it is emo.)

    Everyone can learn social skills, even INTJ's.
    Yes. This is quite different from thinking similarly to everyone else. Basically, I force my entire worldview to understand everyone else's, and they don't bother to understand my worldview. (There's no need, since society agrees with that societal worldview.)

    If you haven't don't blame it on your type.
    It is neither blame nor causation. It's more "it is what it is." I am who I am. You are who you are. We do not necessarily understand each other at a fundamental level.

    And I think you are missing my point; Fi deals with relationship as well, it just focuses on personal feeling rather than collective feeling.
    True. Well said.

    Even if your relationship with the rest of humanity is awkward, it exists, and your Fi tells you it is awkward and needs to be improved. Also Ni sees interconnection and looks at things holistically.
    Yes. But in the end, it turns into, "oh, I need to say things like this, instead of like that, otherwise, they'll read things into what I said that I never intended." (Or more aptly, they're write their own assumptions about how they think into what I think, and arrive at conclusions that are entirely unwarranted.)

    I'm not saying that INTJs are incapable of learning relationships or how human society operates. Rather, the conclusions that we tend to reach about these topics don't sound much like your viewpoint at all.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #56
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Argument by authority. Worse, no actual explanation of why/or how the supposed authority supports anything, which is essential to any rational debate on the topic.


    Depends on how you define "essentially" and "significantly". For the record, while INTJs and INFJs have a LOT in common (I get along with INFJs extremely well), but INFJs really don't understand how INTJs think. The paths of thinking are similar, but the root assumptions are different. (This is, by the way, how I differentiate between INTJ and INFJ. INFJs tend to "sound like me", but the basis of their reasoning often differs very much from my own. I'm not talking conclusions, but the steps to reach those conclusions.)


    Yes, I'm known for being emo. I think I'll go get a tattoo now to protest society's impositions upon myself.

    (I believe you'll find the explanation of my reply should you google "projection." The core point of MBTI and Jung is that different people think differently. That if YOU had said what I had said would be "emo" does not imply that if I say it, it is emo.)


    Yes. This is quite different from thinking similarly to everyone else. Basically, I force my entire worldview to understand everyone else's, and they don't bother to understand my worldview. (There's no need, since society agrees with that societal worldview.)


    It is neither blame nor causation. It's more "it is what it is." I am who I am. You are who you are. We do not necessarily understand each other at a fundamental level.


    True. Well said.


    Yes. But in the end, it turns into, "oh, I need to say things like this, instead of like that, otherwise, they'll read things into what I said that I never intended." (Or more aptly, they're write their own assumptions about how they think into what I think, and arrive at conclusions that are entirely unwarranted.)

    I'm not saying that INTJs are incapable of learning relationships or how human society operates. Rather, the conclusions that we tend to reach about these topics don't sound much like your viewpoint at all.
    Maybe you disagree because you are INTJ, but INTJ's usually think scientifically and you are thinking entirely subjectively. I'm not arguing from authority, I'm stating biological facts about humans as animals and subjects of scientific study. And I'm not talking about "fitting into society," as I've pointed out several times.

    Well I don't want to argue about it. I've said what I wanted to say satisfactorily; if you don't get it it's your loss. You can make excuses about why people don't understand you or you can go out and change the situation.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I don't get it either, frankly. This post was explaining the basis of their value to me. They're not the most important part of my life, but they have an important place.

    If I never had emotion, obviously I wouldn't miss it; I might be curious about it. Of course if I had no emotion at all there would be no way for any situation to affect me one way of the other. But I'm not talking about emotion. I'm talking about a sense of connection and relationship; this is what we mean in the MBTI sense of feeling. It's impossible for anyone to be born without a feeling function, and since we humans are social creatures a person living totally isolated from other living beings would be a messed up person indeed. I'm talking about if I had this connection and then lost it, like if I had to live in a space ship by myself. That would break my heart, and the resulting sadness would adversely affect my health, and my physical body probably would die before its time. So not necessarily false.
    Choosing to let yourself die by not taking actions neccesarry to stay alive is not the same as "dyin of heard break".

    And again you don't need connection or relationships to live. They are good but not neccesarry

    People with Asperger's syndrome are less inclined to and adept at connection and interpersonal relationships. Does that mean there health is in jeapordy?

    Why are you using a "royal we" ?

  8. #58
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Can someone explain to me the point of Feeling?

    What does it actually bring to the world that isn't already there?

    Thinking advances us. Intuition and Sensing are perceptionary and help us understand another's point of view. Ive never bought into the necessity of feeling for the usage of fair and kind judgements towards others.

    Feeling just seems to be an emotive roller-coaster that only frustrates people and causes them to act and lash out in pointless ways. Why is it that I perform everything better without an emotive content, or rather when that emotive content is surpressed?

    What value, (ironic I know), is there in Feeling? How much worse would the world be without it? Feeling is an intellectualisation of emotive content. In other words it justifies and evaluates using rationalisation surrounded by emotion. But emotion is just chemicals triggered in the brain? Why listen to the chemicals?

    Why are some of us trapped into being receptive of these chemicals? I know thinkers arent dead to emotion, of course not, and there is more to feeling than JUST emotion. There is a rational side to it.

    But too often that rational side is used to justify the worst of our acts. In both Feelers and Thinkers perhaps....but more often in Feelers.

    If we take it to be a true construct of our cognitive faculties, rather than a random theory, then what is it's purpose?

    I suspect this is an extension of self hated on my part...but im not fond of Feeling.
    http://stagevu.com/video/fjywclnlkviw
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  9. #59
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    the point of the Feelings functions (Fi/Fe) is the manifested and specialized use of the respective Thinking functions (Te/Ti) when used to deal with emotional dissonance (and vise versa with Thinking and cognitive dissonance).























    The point of emotional dissonance is to make us resolve emotional conflicts, so that we'll be able to function and make better choices in respects to our own emotional well being.

















    the point of emotional well being is AA DON'T KILL YOURSELF, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE MORE WARHAMMER AND BEER TOMORROW.

    /end thread.

  10. #60
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Much as I like that film, it deals with the supression of emotion rather than the absence of it or Feeling as a cognitive function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the point of emotional well being is AA DON'T KILL YOURSELF, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE MORE WARHAMMER AND BEER TOMORROW.
    Well I cant argue with that logic, at least not until the eventual end of our existance which I foresaw in a dream.

    ps: It was from giant hamsters.....im afraid giant hamsters was the correct answer to "What will cause the end of the human race?"
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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