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Thread: Ne/Si vs Se/Ni

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    Default Ne/Si vs Se/Ni

    I see much talk about the associations of these functions, but everything seems to be a regurgitative caricature of the same descriptions. By drawing these comparisons, I hope to help obtain insight into the interactions of these function groupings. Critique is welcomed, and if you enjoy at the very least reading, let me know - I have thoughts on other function groupings and how they interact when preferred in the user.



    First, let's look at the two preferences of information intake, Se and Ne:

    Se - A preference for accepting concrete, factual information in a manner objective to previous experience - a camera

    Ne - A preference for accepting conjured, imaginative information in a manner subjective to previous experience - a kaleidoscope


    Now, the two preferences for recalling information, Si and Ni:

    Si - A preference for objectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a monorail system

    Ni - A preference for subjectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a spider web


    Comparative Analysis:

    With Se/Ni users, you get a mind that objectively perceives reality with a preference for internally metabolizing information once stored. Situations are handled on a case by case basis and presumptions are likely not preferred to be made. The Ni user is potentially pleased when quick associations can be drawn (leading to fabled INTJ/INFJ smugness) since they are often meticulous about the parallels they draw through existences. This would explain also why Ni users are stereotyped as being assumptive in knowing where they can and cannot help you - if the line has not been drawn yet, it is obvious to the Ni user that the information is not applicable to the situation. I believe this can lead to self-doubt, and likely why Ni-dominants have auxiliary judging functions - the constant battle for 'drawing lines' yields an unquenchable desire to establish objective criteria.


    With Ne/Si users, you get a mind that subjectively perceives reality with a preference for externally metabolizing information relative to past experience. To parallel the above summarization, situations are handled contextually, relying on the funnel of information to the various Si nodes of the mind to perceive assorted happenings. The Ne user, because of this preference, is mentally limber in the presumptions made about external stimuli (leading to infamous ENTP/ENFP quips). This is likely the reason Ne users are confident in their ability to aid in a situation - they rely on the mental interconnection their mind is apt at displaying to guide them through fresh experiences. I believe this can lead to over-confidence of abilities and likely why Ne-dominants have auxiliary perceiving functions - when information arises their mind is not capable of sensing, they will intuit an answer.



    Let's look at some more dualities, in the form of popular MBTI type titles:

    INTJ - The Scientist - Objective discoverer of physical phenomena
    ENTP - The Visionary - Subjective interpreter of future events

    INFJ - The Counselor - Objective discoverer of others
    ENFP - The Champion - Subjective conqueror of others

    ISTP - The Crafter - Objective manipulator of reality
    INTP - The Architect - Subjective designer of reality

    ISFP - The Artist - Objective illustrator of reality
    INFP - The Idealist - Subjective conjurer of reality



    Now one last set of dualities, focusing on type weaknesses (according to personality page):

    ISFP - The ISFP is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

    INFP - INFPs have very high standards and are perfectionists. Consequently, they are usually hard on themselves, and don't give themselves enough credit. INFPs may have problems working on a project in a group, because their standards are likely to be higher than other members' of the group. In group situations, they may have a "control" problem. Under stress, it's not uncommon for INFPs to mis-use hard logic in the heat of anger, throwing out fact after (often inaccurate) fact in an emotional outburst.

    INTJ - When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, sensate activities, such as over-drinking.

    ENTP - Under stress, the ENTP may lose their ability to generate possibilities, and become obsessed with minor details. These details may seem to be extremely important to the ENTP, but in reality are usually not important to the big picture.




    In conclusion - and this will likely be a recurring theme I wish to accentuate during my tenor on the site - Se/Si are desirable traits to have high in your function stacking, and also likely why it is preferred at a ratio of three to one over the alternative. I presume many of you (as well as the famous) are mistyped, and I will be conducting trials over the coming period of time challenging willing participants. Sorry for the tl;dr, but thank you for those who did - I look forward to your responses.

  2. #2
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Wow. What a great job and interesting insights! I don't think it's tl;dr material at all because it's laid out so well. I like this sort of analysis and find it very helpful to use simple and comparative terms. I've been trying to do something along those lines myself (although with a different approach).

    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    First, let's look at the two preferences of information intake, Se and Ne:

    Se - A preference for accepting concrete, factual information in a manner objective to previous experience - a camera

    Ne - A preference for accepting conjured, imaginative information in a manner subjective to previous experience - a kaleidoscope


    Now, the two preferences for recalling information, Si and Ni:

    Si - A preference for objectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a monorail system

    Ni - A preference for subjectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a spider web
    Very nice! Thoughts:

    - I never thought of a subjective/objective difference in perceiving functions but it really makes sense. I guess this dichotomy must be in play with all the functions.
    - I like that Pe is "accepting" and Pi is "viewing". That is a good way of defining the extroversion and introversion difference (something that is hard to do in simple terms).
    - Also interesting is suggesting the difference between Se and Ne is in whether it relates to previous experience or not. I wouldn't have thought about it that way. Of course, Se attempts to be pure and untainted, and Ne is always framing things in wider context.
    - I like "conjured, imaginative information" to define Ne. It suggests the tangential thinking that goes on but also that the sense that Ne looks at the world and extracts an impression that isn't really there in reality. In other words it can't really receive literal information without also imprinting an idea onto it at the same time. Interesting!
    - I like how you show how Pi stored information relates to the present moment. It's interesting to think of Pi as seeing the "current experience" as secondary to stored information. The first instinct is to review what they know and then see how it applies.
    - I'm not sure I like the Si and Ni metaphors as much; I don't think they quite capture them. I don't think of Si as quite so linear as that, and I think Ni is more arbitrary (for the lack of a better word) than a spider web. I would say Si is more like a spider web, but I don't know what would be a good metaphor for Ni.


    Comparative Analysis:

    With Se/Ni users, you get a mind that objectively perceives reality with a preference for internally metabolizing information once stored. Situations are handled on a case by case basis and presumptions are likely not preferred to be made. The Ni user is potentially pleased when quick associations can be drawn (leading to fabled INTJ/INFJ smugness) since they are often meticulous about the parallels they draw through existences. This would explain also why Ni users are stereotyped as being assumptive in knowing where they can and cannot help you - if the line has not been drawn yet, it is obvious to the Ni user that the information is not applicable to the situation. I believe this can lead to self-doubt, and likely why Ni-dominants have auxiliary judging functions - the constant battle for 'drawing lines' yields an unquenchable desire to establish objective criteria.


    With Ne/Si users, you get a mind that subjectively perceives reality with a preference for externally metabolizing information relative to past experience. To parallel the above summarization, situations are handled contextually, relying on the funnel of information to the various Si nodes of the mind to perceive assorted happenings. The Ne user, because of this preference, is mentally limber in the presumptions made about external stimuli (leading to infamous ENTP/ENFP quips). This is likely the reason Ne users are confident in their ability to aid in a situation - they rely on the mental interconnection their mind is apt at displaying to guide them through fresh experiences. I believe this can lead to over-confidence of abilities and likely why Ne-dominants have auxiliary perceiving functions - when information arises their mind is not capable of sensing, they will intuit an answer.
    Well written - again nice word choice. I like "metabolising" in particular.

    It's a bit unfortunate that you made this all very N-leaning. Could you write more about the Sensor preference too, or do separate ones for the different orders? I feel like I'm only getting half the story.

    Let's look at some more dualities, in the form of popular MBTI type titles:

    INTJ - The Scientist - Objective discoverer of physical phenomena
    ENTP - The Visionary - Subjective interpreter of future events

    INFJ - The Counselor - Objective discoverer of others
    ENFP - The Champion - Subjective conqueror of others

    ISTP - The Crafter - Objective manipulator of reality
    INTP - The Architect - Subjective designer of reality

    ISFP - The Artist - Objective illustrator of reality
    INFP - The Idealist - Subjective conjurer of reality
    Interesting.

    I don't know if "conqueror" is quite right for the ENFP. I can see you want to contrast it with the INFJ "discoverer" but that the word has negative connotations (perhaps ISTP "manipulator" might be in the same boat).

    I'd like a least one or two SJs in there too.

    Now one last set of dualities, focusing on type weaknesses (according to personality page):

    ISFP - The ISFP is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

    INFP - INFPs have very high standards and are perfectionists. Consequently, they are usually hard on themselves, and don't give themselves enough credit. INFPs may have problems working on a project in a group, because their standards are likely to be higher than other members' of the group. In group situations, they may have a "control" problem. Under stress, it's not uncommon for INFPs to mis-use hard logic in the heat of anger, throwing out fact after (often inaccurate) fact in an emotional outburst.

    INTJ - When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, sensate activities, such as over-drinking.

    ENTP - Under stress, the ENTP may lose their ability to generate possibilities, and become obsessed with minor details. These details may seem to be extremely important to the ENTP, but in reality are usually not important to the big picture.
    These are fine, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I assume it's to show how Ne/Si and Se/Ni apply in practice. It might be nice if you connected this more with the information you've just laid out about and framed the examples more clearly with the Pe/Pi factors in mind. Why weaknesses too? You could write a bit of both positive and negative. I also think the IXFP definitions are clouded a bit by Judging related factors - it's better to minimise that so that Perceiving aspects become clearer.

    But overall a great effort!
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Wow. What a great job and interesting insights! I don't think it's tl;dr material at all because it's laid out so well. I like this sort of analysis and find it very helpful to use simple and comparative terms. I've been trying to do something along those lines myself (although with a different approach).

    I am glad even a site veteran found utility in reading this. Your critique is beyond what I expected, thank you.


    Very nice! Thoughts:

    - I never thought of a subjective/objective difference in perceiving functions but it really makes sense. I guess this dichotomy must be in play with all the functions.
    - I like that Pe is "accepting" and Pi is "viewing". That is a good way of defining the extroversion and introversion difference (something that is hard to do in simple terms).
    - Also interesting is suggesting the difference between Se and Ne is in whether it relates to previous experience or not. I wouldn't have thought about it that way. Of course, Se attempts to be pure and untainted, and Ne is always framing things in wider context.
    - I like "conjured, imaginative information" to define Ne. It suggests the tangential thinking that goes on but also that the sense that Ne looks at the world and extracts an impression that isn't really there in reality. In other words it can't really receive literal information without also imprinting an idea onto it at the same time. Interesting!
    - I like how you show how Pi stored information relates to the present moment. It's interesting to think of Pi as seeing the "current experience" as secondary to stored information. The first instinct is to review what they know and then see how it applies.
    - I'm not sure I like the Si and Ni metaphors as much; I don't think they quite capture them. I don't think of Si as quite so linear as that, and I think Ni is more arbitrary (for the lack of a better word) than a spider web. I would say Si is more like a spider web, but I don't know what would be a good metaphor for Ni.

    I was apprehensive of using the words 'conjured' and 'imaginative', but I am glad you are able to see the connotations. I didn't much care for those analogies either, but believe me, it's the best I've been able to come up with after a few weeks of thought. I will go into detail on why I feel those are best suited for these functions:

    Si as a monorail system: I feel the mind's trackings are deliberately and almost steadfastly planted in the Earth. The train is capable of objectively moving between large nodes of factual information - trains are also known for revolutionizing the manner in which materials are efficiently transported, but to 'rewire' nodes of Si takes effort analogous to either dredging and redirecting existing track or adding junction stations. Either way, a good bit of industrious labor for the user is entailed.

    Ni as a spiderweb: I feel the factual webbing is elegantly connected and easily repaired when tussled with. It is also traversed and manipulated by a subjective explorer: the spider. The subjective spider is able to move in three dimensions at all times searching for its prey, never constrained by where webbing does or does not exist. However, I believe that because of this ease of movement, the Ni user has a couple disadvantages - like it's Ne cousin, parallels can be drawn where none exist and Ni users are likely more easily manipulated when dwelling in thought.


    Well written - again nice word choice. I like "metabolising" in particular.

    It's a bit unfortunate that you made this all very N-leaning. Could you write more about the Sensor preference too, or do separate ones for the different orders? I feel like I'm only getting half the story.

    Yes, I thought that, when writing... I just did not know how to give it proper contextual thought. I will be touching on the subject during another review of functions, something I will talk about below.


    Interesting.

    I don't know if "conqueror" is quite right for the ENFP. I can see you want to contrast it with the INFJ "discoverer" but that the word has negative connotations (perhaps ISTP "manipulator" might be in the same boat).

    I'd like a least one or two SJs in there too.

    I didn't care much for it either, but if the shoe fits. "Champion" was Kiersey's choice of verbage, so I went with that. Another title I found was "Inspirer", but I could not help but feel it was a sensitized type name for the former. I suppose, though, if you were to look at it from that angle, the ENFP gives rise to potential in self and others at a rate higher than other types aspire for. I kind of liked my usage of ISTP's as manipulators :P It's a perfect word, despite the negative connotations. They understand what it takes to make things demonstrably work.

    I had SJ's in there but deleted them. It felt out of place, inconsistent with the theme of the thread. I want to make a separate thread on them, perhaps with a Si/TFe - Ni/TFe theme.


    These are fine, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I assume it's to show how Ne/Si and Se/Ni apply in practice. It might be nice if you connected this more with the information you've just laid out about and framed the examples more clearly with the Pe/Pi factors in mind. Why weaknesses too? You could write a bit of both positive and negative. I also think the IXFP definitions are clouded a bit by Judging related factors - it's better to minimise that so that Perceiving aspects become clearer.

    But overall a great effort!

    By this point, it was approaching 4am and I was nearly exhausted with thinking. Leaving it up to interpretation of the reader was my goal, I suppose, and I also have ulterior motives for doing so I want to see what kinds of things people will draw from these examples. The critique is duly noted.


    Thank you again for your thoughtful response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I didn't care much for it either, but if the shoe fits. "Champion" was Kiersey's choice of verbage, so I went with that.
    I always took Kiersey's "Champion" name as more "one who supports a cause" vs "one who defeated others."

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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I always took Kiersey's "Champion" name as more "one who supports a cause" vs "one who defeated others."

    A fine enough way of looking at it, more clever than what I could postulate. I stated in another place of the forum that I really feel I short changed some descriptions of Ne users. I could not think of an efficient manner to describe how Ne/Fi users perceive and objectify their existence; by 'others' I did not specifically mean 'other people'. I meant 'other objective criteria' - as you say, assorted causes. For posterity's sake, I will leave things as they stand in my post, but I appreciate your contribution to future efforts of expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    First, let's look at the two preferences of information intake, Se and Ne:

    Se - A preference for accepting concrete, factual information in a manner objective to previous experience - a camera

    Ne - A preference for accepting conjured, imaginative information in a manner subjective to previous experience - a kaleidoscope


    Now, the two preferences for recalling information, Si and Ni:

    Si - A preference for objectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a monorail system

    Ni - A preference for subjectively viewing stored information relative to current experience - a spider web
    So, Ne is the painting and Se the picture?

    And Si is the written story and Ni the one passed from mouth to mouth?

    Just drawing my own analogies to comprehend it better.


    Now one last set of dualities, focusing on type weaknesses (according to personality page):

    ISFP - The ISFP is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

    INFP - INFPs have very high standards and are perfectionists. Consequently, they are usually hard on themselves, and don't give themselves enough credit. INFPs may have problems working on a project in a group, because their standards are likely to be higher than other members' of the group. In group situations, they may have a "control" problem. Under stress, it's not uncommon for INFPs to mis-use hard logic in the heat of anger, throwing out fact after (often inaccurate) fact in an emotional outburst.

    INTJ - When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, sensate activities, such as over-drinking.

    ENTP - Under stress, the ENTP may lose their ability to generate possibilities, and become obsessed with minor details. These details may seem to be extremely important to the ENTP, but in reality are usually not important to the big picture.
    These are all good, but I think the INFP description is more a function of Fi/Te than Ne/Si.

    By the way, when I look at my surroundings - let's use a foggy park or forest - I see the landscape as a sort of fairytale place. The fog makes it become mystical and I'm expecting the trees to begin moving at any point and ancient wizards and elves to appear out of nowhere. Of course, that is an oversimplification of the feeling inspired as it's a lot more deep than that, but would you say that's Ne?
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

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    I don't know how I never responded to this. My bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    So, Ne is the painting and Se the picture?

    And Si is the written story and Ni the one passed from mouth to mouth?

    Just drawing my own analogies to comprehend it better.

    Those are good analogies. Ne paints the scene and stores it to Si. Se sees the picture and Ni wonders why it's painted that way. Both have their merits and otherwise.


    These are all good, but I think the INFP description is more a function of Fi/Te than Ne/Si.

    I will have to disagree, because ISFP's share the same functions. Dario Nardi considers Se to be a low energy function, Ne a high energy function. I think that is the result of these things I evidenced. Se/Ni users tend to fall into complacency under stress, Ne/Si users tend to become overbearing in their vision. This is what my intuition and common denominators across type descriptions seem to suggest, at least.


    By the way, when I look at my surroundings - let's use a foggy park or forest - I see the landscape as a sort of fairytale place. The fog makes it become mystical and I'm expecting the trees to begin moving at any point and ancient wizards and elves to appear out of nowhere. Of course, that is an oversimplification of the feeling inspired as it's a lot more deep than that, but would you say that's Ne?

    Probably Ne, yes.


    For the record, I think people can be Se/Si, Ne/Si, Se/Ni, and Ne/Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    For the record, I think people can be Se/Si, Ne/Si, Se/Ni, and Ne/Ni.
    Hm...interesting combinations; do you have another thread around where you expand on this? Would be great to check out.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    Hm...interesting combinations; do you have another thread around where you expand on this? Would be great to check out.

    No, this is my first expression of the thought - but it would be groundwork for any cognition theory I'd dream up :P

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