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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by meow175 View Post
    Praytell why would anyone *want* to look a weird geek?
    Because it makes them feel like they have superior intelligence and are misunderstood, and unique.

    You don't sound like a genius in every each post of yours.
    I respect your right to be wrong.

    Yeah how about starting a thread about how N sucks: inadept at the things of the world, missing simple things, overanalysing simple things, useless generation of random "creative" but irrealistic ideas...... and so on.
    Who is stopping you from starting one? And why would that be counterposed or in any way relevant to this thread?

    Also the word is UNREALISTIC not IRREALISTIC.

    Yeah that's not the N of really smart people of course because those actually produce creativity that match high standards. The same may be said of the S of really smart people. My point is that smartness and N/S don't really correlate much.
    Who said they correlate?



    The first intelligent post in this thread. Ha.
    And apparently the last one!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by meow175 View Post
    Just curious, do those people thank you later for helping them out in just the right way using your insights?
    No I don't do this very often, and it's still kinda hit and miss when I try.

  3. #23
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    Meow's post is an abomination of nature and requires extermination. I will say one thing however (in regards to my quoted post) : sensors can draw.The point I was making was that they may confuse themselves for an N because they managed a degree of creative expression which they are capable of.

    You smell like ... a sensor (joke.)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by meow175 View Post
    What does "abstract" even mean?
    Its roots are in the word-parts "abs", indicating "away", and "tragh/dheragh", indicating "to draw/drag". Drawn away, essentially.

    To me, "abstraction" manifests in the way I find it easier to think via artificial symmetric systems than to try to deal with the present terms of reality. I am focused on creating additional layers of interpretation to link and simplify realistic situations, which to me seem complex and messy. It's like using language to say "rock" instead of finding and presenting the specific rock you had in mind itself. It's quicker and easier but less accurate.

    The MBTI in and of itself makes it easier to speak about differences between people, intrapersonal development, and interpersonal relationships. It's a good microcosm for the advantages and disadvantages of being an N and prone to abstraction: on one hand, it's a huge amount of information compressed into a handful of easy-to-remember, symmetric units (humans have a strong preference for symmetry, probably rooted in reproductive biology), meaning you can make progress more quickly than if you had to begin from scratch. On the other, it can't possibly capture all the nuances of reality, and is technically always wrong - you will always have to "translate" back and forth between theory and reality.

    Is abstraction an advantage? As with virtually all things, I think it is when used in moderation. Too much abstraction and we remove ourselves entirely from the world - we become strangers from our own existence, and lose touch with the physical and present aspects of our selves. Too little abstraction and we run the risk of becoming trapped in the same situation over and over again, and have trouble seeing beyond present boundaries.

    Yeah how about starting a thread about how N sucks: inadept at the things of the world, missing simple things, overanalysing simple things, useless generation of random "creative" but irrealistic ideas...... and so on.

    Yeah that's not the N of really smart people of course because those actually produce creativity that match high standards. The same may be said of the S of really smart people. My point is that smartness and N/S don't really correlate much.
    I would agree. Nor does creativity, in its truest sense of creating - many SJs in particular tend to "build" systems and SPs are called "Artisans" by Keirsey.

    There are studies that have shown that higher IQ tends to correlate with N, but in my opinion, IQ is a rather flawed measure of intelligence - as of last I read, it also tends to correlate with being a well-off older white male from an affluent, stable country. IMO, the only thing IQ measures is IQ.

    It would seem to me that S and N work best together. Whether or not you are better off being one or the other probably has much to do with your present environment and needs, as is true for all of the other letter variants as well.

  5. #25
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Everything you say is true, but you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

    We all know that the common perception of iNtuitives is as intellectual, abstract, uninterested in banalities.
    banalities are based on perspective and expectations. this is just our somewhat restricted preference within an exaggerated N community. and somewhat polemical because dammit, it's ours! and that has not always been easy to find for many of the N types here. prejudice binds communities. the politics of preference organize status. and many people utilize negative rhetoric to get ahead when it offers an advantage. it's shitty and immature, but it's part of how the game is played. but it's just a game within a particular sphere and not some universal truth. i'm fucking banal as can possibly be to many S types. to men who golf. to middle-aged women who are meeting for bible study. to flight attendants and people who work at banks. to all the chiropractor waiting rooms in the world. to the godhead known as super bowl sunday. etc.

    moreover, many istp 5s i know are extremely studious, intellectual, knowledgeable. same with many isjs who memorize dictionaries and encyclopedias of knowledge. many j 1s give off an intellectual vibe as well, including an esfj friend of mine who was one of my favorite people to talk to at school because we both enjoyed deliberating and asking clarifying questions. who truly appreciated and was fucking good at the process of good reasons.

    Finally, and this goes for @jontherobot and @lauranna as well: I didn't exactly say people fake being N's, I said they may try to seem more iNtuitive.
    i agree that many people are mistyped on this site.

    i also know there is a kind of N game i frequently find myself playing with others. you just want to see if they can catch something and throw it back to you in a way that shows understanding. to plume their and your own inner vision. (in an entirely N space, i would have written "fondling each other's inner vision" because i find it amusing and intuitively quirky, whereas in more public space i'm generally unwilling to push through the cringe and do it anyway). and it's a contest. peacocks!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjckjX13Nvk

    I am pretty sure I am iNtuitive, but I don't really try to sound like a genius with each post (though it comes naturally).

    But if I DID try to quote Einstein at you in every post, then I would be TRYING to sound like one. Regardless of the fact that a.) that I am one, and b.) that isn't what one really sounds like.
    quoting someone is just using reference to show you're connected to a discourse. the next part is the way you do it, whether you can position yourself skillfully within it (without having the whole fabric of the context bunch up and distort in ways that seem to be lacking artful intentionality). because to take a map in one domain to organize understanding in another domain is the work of analogy. this is what makes N what it is. we use analogy to create space for possibilities that would otherwise not have been seen. it's not just the picture but the resonance the picture might suggest based on the overall oeuvre. it's a superpowered guess machine, an interlocking pattern of guesses, and we can't stop. we rely on context to abstract the essence of things so that we can remember the shape of the patterns that connect the details rather than the exact details themselves. this is good for bridging between conflicting perspectives, disambiguating, revising deep-seated beliefs, and letting go of the "sense" that any particular way of understanding the world is truly foundational. hello (no)n-sense!

    Pi is more stuck in this referential way of thinking in general. it can be painfully indirect for others. i know, because i have to read my own posts.

    to be honest, i regret the whole "oh yes, this is my S friend" republicanesque label i have judgmentally put on S types in the past. it is different in pretty consistent ways, and i do understand that N is kind of the core of me, something that is most salient to my identity because it's most salient to my experience, my desires, and my potential, but i have missed out on really good interactions as a result of my own small-mindedness. and i have missed out on learning how to relate to other aspects of myself that would have been really good for me (and far more enjoyable than i had assumed at the time). at the same time, to find others who communicate with you so naturally, so effortlessly, kind of feels familial and awesome and like a great privilege worth revering. if you don't, you will never have the energy and momentum to expand yourself and realize that you have the energy to relate more broadly than you thought you did, when you were so focused on what you were not.

    also, the N vs S thing is kind of a category of you, but it's really more of a developmental one than an absolute idea of you one. more of the timing and the way you unfold than an atemporal absolute either/or. we will all lose our N or S virginity eventually. or we will leave a lot of tragically unlived life on the table.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    banalities are based on perspective and expectations. this is just our somewhat restricted preference within an exaggerated N community. and somewhat polemical because dammit, it's ours! and that has not always been easy to find for many of the N types here. prejudice binds communities. the politics of preference organize status. and many people utilize negative rhetoric to get ahead when it offers an advantage. it's shitty and immature, but it's part of how the game is played. but it's just a game within a particular sphere and not some universal truth. i'm fucking banal as can possibly be to many S types. to men who golf. to middle-aged women who are meeting for bible study. to flight attendants and people who work at banks. to all the chiropractor waiting rooms in the world. to the godhead known as super bowl sunday. etc.

    moreover, many istp 5s i know are extremely studious, intellectual, knowledgeable. same with many isjs who memorize dictionaries and encyclopedias of knowledge. many j 1s give off an intellectual vibe as well, including an esfj friend of mine who was one of my favorite people to talk to at school because we both enjoyed deliberating and asking clarifying questions. who truly appreciated and was fucking good at the process of good reasons.



    i agree that many people are mistyped on this site.

    i also know there is a kind of N game i frequently find myself playing with others. you just want to see if they can catch something and throw it back to you in a way that shows understanding. to plume their and your own inner vision. (in an entirely N space, i would have written "fondling each other's inner vision" because i find it amusing and intuitively quirky, whereas in more public space i'm generally unwilling to push through the cringe and do it anyway). and it's a contest. peacocks!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjckjX13Nvk



    quoting someone is just using reference to show you're connected to a discourse. the next part is the way you do it, whether you can position yourself skillfully within it (without having the whole fabric of the context bunch up and distort in ways that seem to be lacking artful intentionality). because to take a map in one domain to organize understanding in another domain is the work of analogy. this is what makes N what it is. we use analogy to create space for possibilities that would otherwise not have been seen. it's not just the picture but the resonance the picture might suggest based on the overall oeuvre. it's a superpowered guess machine, an interlocking pattern of guesses, and we can't stop. we rely on context to abstract the essence of things so that we can remember the shape of the patterns that connect the details rather than the exact details themselves. this is good for bridging between conflicting perspectives, disambiguating, revising deep-seated beliefs, and letting go of the "sense" that any particular way of understanding the world is truly foundational. hello (no)n-sense!

    Pi is more stuck in this referential way of thinking in general. it can be painfully indirect for others. i know, because i have to read my own posts.

    to be honest, i regret the whole "oh yes, this is my S friend" republicanesque label i have judgmentally put on S types in the past. it is different in pretty consistent ways, and i do understand that N is kind of the core of me, something that is most salient to my identity because it's most salient to my experience, my desires, and my potential, but i have missed out on really good interactions as a result of my own small-mindedness. and i have missed out on learning how to relate to other aspects of myself that would have been really good for me (and far more enjoyable than i had assumed at the time). at the same time, to find others who communicate with you so naturally, so effortlessly, kind of feels familial and awesome and like a great privilege worth revering. if you don't, you will never have the energy and momentum to expand yourself and realize that you have the energy to relate more broadly than you thought you did, when you were so focused on what you were not.

    also, the N vs S thing is kind of a category of you, but it's really more of a developmental one than an absolute idea of you one. more of the timing and the way you unfold than an atemporal absolute either/or. we will all lose our N or S virginity eventually. or we will leave a lot of tragically unlived life on the table.
    Thank you for this post.

    You described EXACTLY the kind of attitude that has always irritated me. However, I am not going to criticize you for it, precisely because you got my point exactly, and gave me an excellent insight into the thing I was critiquing, as if you could read my mind and know exactly what I was looking for. I also have to say, that what you said about the "familial" feeling, may make me soften my position slightly. Because I always saw it as pure pretentiousness and competitiveness, but I now see that for some people at least, there is more to it.

    Now I have to be honest - I cannot identify at all with what you said. This is why:

    Neither MBTI in general, nor iNtuitiveness in particular, are an "identity" for me.

    I guess it would make sense though that as an NF, Ni-dom, with auxiliary Fe, you would feel both very much the need to express your "true self" (INFx), and to identify as part of a group (xxFJ).

    Personally, I am an Fe user, so I do need to feel part of a group. But this expresses itself in a feeling I have which, while it is very deep felt and unchangeable, is also distant and broad: my "identity" is my family, my country, my city. I can go months without seeing them, I can not particularly like many things about them, I am "distant" from them, but at the same time, my love for them is unshaking. My identity is a very important thing to me, but it is a generic identity, not a "personal" one. This would be horrible to an INFx, I know.


    On the other hand, I just see my MBTI type as what I am like, as opposed to who I am. It describes my head, not my heart. My culture, my family, my particular interests, all make me who I am, not just the way my brain processes information. If I meet another N I'm like, sure, we may be able to communicate on a certain level, but I don't really feel any warmth towards them just for that.

    I primarily like people of different types, who share my culture, values, interests etc. (which are varied and not just "Ne-related"). Obviously similair types are broadly easier for me to get along with, but there are so many other factors as well, as to mean that I don't think about this as an important issue.

    Perhaps this is why my Fe, manifests itself in the opposite way to how you described - I usually seek to keep my communication style as broad as possible, so that I do not put off potential friends who do not have the same love for abstraction and theory that I do. And this is why people trying to "out-N" each other, always struck me as either pretentious, or irritatingly, exaggeratedly geeky, or both.

    But in any case, you explained it well so thanks for your post once more!

  7. #27
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    Lots of folks here on this forum accuse me of being ISTP, though the funny thing is, everyone pretty much universally agrees I am enneagram 5, even if a few say 7, so it follows that these folks who think I'm a sesnor still think I give off an intellectual vibe, since they pretty much all still say type 5, which of course is commonly associated with intellect, so come to your senses, and realize the genius comes outside your little superiority box! That's right, these sensors actually sense what's going on outside the box, using the Force to their full advantage.

    Therefore, if you are the right sensing type, like ISTP or ISTJ, and an enneagram 5 or 1, you know, supposedly the more intelligent sensing types and enneagrams, then people won't look down on you quite as much, though they still seem to even think frivolous ENFPs and ENFJs are smarter, just because, well, they're intuitive, while ISTPs and ISTJs aren't, even if they display far superior reasoning and logical capabilites. I guess folks just don't see them being as interesting as their intuitive gang that may very well include members with far inferior intellect as well as much less supremity in mind power.

    But most sensing types don't have any hope on this forum whatsoever, in particular, ESTJs and ESFJs. Sadly, this forum seems to hate them. Ironically, those are supposedly the judgmental types, but it is actually them being judged so harshly by the so called INTPs and INFPs or whoever else, you know, types that supposedly aren't quite as judgmental. We need to embrace all types and all different kinds of people, as they each play important roles in our world, whether it is being the architect behind the blueprint, the mechanic who works with it, and whatever else, the architect supposedly being the intuitive, and the mechanic playing the role of the sensor. You could actually argue though, that the sensor plays a more useful role.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Lots of folks here on this forum accuse me of being ISTP, though the funny thing is, everyone pretty much universally agrees I am enneagram 5, even if a few say 7, so it follows that these folks who think I'm a sesnor still think I give off an intellectual vibe, since they pretty much all still say type 5, which of course is commonly associated with intellect, so come to your senses, and realize the genius comes outside your little superiority box! That's right, these sensors actually sense what's going on outside the box, using the Force to their full advantage.

    Therefore, if you are the right sensing type, like ISTP or ISTJ, and an enneagram 5 or 1, you know, supposedly the more intelligent sensing types and enneagrams, then people won't look down on you quite as much, though they still seem to even think frivolous ENFPs and ENFJs are smarter, just because, well, they're intuitive, while ISTPs and ISTJs aren't, even if they display far superior reasoning and logical capabilites. I guess folks just don't see them being as interesting as their intuitive gang that may very well include members with far inferior intellect as well as much less supremity in mind power.

    But most sensing types don't have any hope on this forum whatsoever, in particular, ESTJs and ESFJs. Sadly, this forum seems to hate them. Ironically, those are supposedly the judgmental types, but it is actually them being judged so harshly by the so called INTPs and INFPs or whoever else, you know, types that supposedly aren't quite as judgmental. We need to embrace all types and all different kinds of people, as they each play important roles in our world, whether it is being the architect behind the blueprint, the mechanic who works with it, and whatever else, the architect supposedly being the intuitive, and the mechanic playing the role of the sensor. You could actually argue though, that the sensor plays a more useful role.
    I mainly "judge" (in the sense of "get along with"t) posters on whether they can raise a laugh and get my humour. I think you pass the test so you MBTI type isn't an issue to me.

    You seem more ENTP than ISTP online, I don't get an ISTP vibe at all. But I have no clue what you're like offline. I guess you know your own Se abilities or lack thereof.

  9. #29
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    You know, giving this a bit more thought....it could also be that, (at a glance), it is more advantageous to appear intuitive merely because it is just that....an advantage.

    And many people exist who look for the advantages. Employing strategy works anywhere after all.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    You know, giving this a bit more thought....it could also be that, (at a glance), it is more advantageous to appear intuitive merely because it is just that....an advantage.

    And many people exist who look for the advantages. Employing strategy works anywhere after all.
    What's the advantage?

    If I knew of one, I could understand this better.

    My view is that what people think of me online has 0 impact on my life, and therefore I couldn't care less.

    I don't know of anyone who got offered a job through TypoCentral for example...

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