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  1. #81
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If I were to turn that around to talk about inferior sensing...

    One aspect of introverted intuition is the uncovering of some truer layer of content in events or things, right? If one were to consider their own introverted intuiting in introverted intuiting terms, would not one from time to time come across elements of perception that could only be accounted for as introverted perception by obscurantism of sorts where the seer deliberately hides what we'd otherwise know as an objective perception? ...

    And I'll stop there because it starts getting non-self explanatory. It's actually true, but that last bit about "What we'd otherwise know as an objective element" doesn't state well what I mean. You only otherwise know it as an objective element by judging it to be. So the obscuring taking place is ye olde tertiary temptation....

    To integrate the inferior is to come to terms with the tertiary? Which you do by communing more with the auxiliary? The inferior comes along for the ride whenever you're, um, auxiliarating, so....


    It seems like if we're to talk of the inferior function then we do have to, at least start out talking about two things: the inferior function and the complex associated with the inferior function. Presumably you gain greater access to the former when you gain greater awareness of the latter.

    Interestingly, I tend to enjoy aspects of stereotypical extroverted sensing. I like going out and experiencing the environment in the moment. This does NOT remove the paranoias and distress I experience around typical inferior extroverted sensing issues. For example, I still worry in quite an uncomfortable fashion when confronted, say, with an institutional lack of power. I foresee difficulties that I believe I will not be able to influence when really the only thing standing in my way is the willingness to make phone calls, take meetings, reach agreements, etc.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #82
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    in order to work with your inferior, you need to go against of your dominant function and become aare of your tert
    Going against your dominant function will land you in confusion. In the standard model, your tertiary will simply back up your dominant outlook and "protect" you from stretching yourself (the so-called tertiary temptation). Thus the encouragement to consciously develop your aux in order to round out your relationship with reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I have heard this before, I think from Lenore. And I have looked into the auxilary function being the best to develop to achieve growth. It's still difficult for me to get a grasp on. But for me the new information you present,is that if you go through the inferior directly it tends to interfere...? Do you believe this to be true?
    It comes direct from Jung:
    I have frequently observed how an analyst, confronted with a terrific thinking type, for instance, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. Such an attempt is foredoomed to failure, because it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. Should the violation nevertheless be successful, a really compulsive dependence of the patient on the analyst ensues, a transference that can only be brutally terminated, because, having been left without a standpoint, the patient has made his standpoint the analyst. . . . In order to cushion the impact of the unconscious, an irrational type needs a stronger development of the rational auxiliary function present in consciousness (and vice versa).
    Have you had experience with it I mean? I can sorta understand how it can compromise the dom function a little...but wouldn't they sooner or later live in harmony? Like if you were Conciously using the inferior..?
    They tend to oppose each other/ cancel each other out. If they could live in harmony the notion of type would cease to exist... The whole point is that there is a dialectic tension between them and you are forced, via the process of individuation, to choose one over the other.

    I have never tried to use my inferior deliberately. It would be like voting for the Republican Party when I want the Democrats to win. Why would I do that? Would it make me more "well-balanced"? Or just confused...?

    According to Lenore, and in line with my own observations, INTPs have greater access to Fi (she places it third in our "type lasagne" after Ti/Ne). Thus it is easier for an INTP to develop Fi than to descend to the Fe depths. Which just makes more sense for the type which is perhaps the most independent-minded of all. I'm prepared to accept that other INTPs develop differently. But I haven't seen any evidence to support that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    is inferior sensing an actual function or is it the complex representation of the rejection of an actual function?
    Since the inferior "function" is effectively non-functional (while buried in the unconscious) I would say it's closer to being an autonomous complex.
    What are "functions" though, really? Just habits of mind. Habits of attention. If we think about the physical implementation in terms of the way the brain works, those parts that are unused atrophy or get co-opted to do other stuff.

    If you were deprived of light, your brain would lose the capacity to process visual data and the visual cortex would get used for something else - auditory processing, perhaps, or olfactory. Your eyes would still function normally, but you'd be effectively blind, because you don't have functioning visual cortex. Similarly, if you are someone who constantly represses whatever "Se-ing" is in the brain, I would expect your capacity to "Se" to be undeveloped and difficult to access. The inferior isn't like some hidden talent we just haven't tapped into. It's genuinely inferior in every sense.

    Same with Fe. You don't exercise that part of your brain that integrates emotional cues from others or that activates sympathy, (or whatever "Fe-ing" is), it's going to wither away and get further and further from conscious use. Of course, you still have a limbic system, you still have all this data pouring in, you're just not doing anything useful with it, you don't have neuronal paths feeding that data to higher cortical awareness - you're not paying any attention to it - until the system backs up / gets overloaded. Which is what happens when you fall into the grip of your inferior. You become a helpless child again, and that pushes you to learn new ways of coping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Are you shitting me? What do you mean by “a more forceful exercise of control”? Because it sounds like you’re saying that refusing to keep participating in a conversation which has basically turned into another person’s monologue is somehow exercising forceful control? Ideally both parties have control over their own participation and only their own participation- if one person ducks out because the interaction is no longer valuable enough to expend the energy or time, that’s their right. It’s like a consumer vote.
    No. I'm not "shitting you". I don't really understand the aggression, tbh.
    Withdrawing unilaterally from a conversation is an exercise of control, whether you like it or not. I didn't say it wasn't a legitimate option.

    I’m still not entirely sure I buy into a strict theory about only certain functions playing a role according to the standard type hierarchy, because there’s just too much crossover here and there in practice.
    I agree. We can have more than one inferior too, in various states of awareness.

    Not really- as I experience it and the Jung description you posted states- the nit-pickiness is really more about needing the physical, objective environment around us a certain way. Inferior Se isn’t about nit-picking concepts.
    Fair enough. Valid distinction (as opposed to nit-picky one).

    Yes, it’s totally and completely available for someone to think this about themselves.
    I take it you disagree. It doesn't really matter - you don't know me.
    I entered this thread expressing agreement with your comments about how you thought the inferior played out with your own type. I then expanded to cover my own experience and all you have done is basically dismiss my experience and tell me that I'm wrong, as well as everything that you think is wrong with NTPs, based on nothing other than your own preferences/prejudices.

    And I didn’t intend for that analogy to be about interacting with NTPs, per se (eta: personally I'd take more offense at being compared to a Soderbergh movie).
    I happen to like Soderburgh movies...(case in point).

    I’m getting the impression this seems more emotionally charged for me than it is- this ‘frustration’. The only reason it keeps coming back up is because I’ve tried describing my own observations of how NTPs can be short-sighted- and every time you respond to what I write by suggesting it might ‘seem that way’ to me because of some INFJ shortcoming (projection, inferior Se, etc)- so I respond to clarify, but you just keep wanting to point out how it might only ‘seems that way’ to me. I’m just trying to point out that INTPs do have their own version of tunnel vision going on occasionally. But apparently the only way you can cope with hearing that someone has this opinion is to tell yourself it’s addle-minded INFJness that gives me this impression, because that’s what you keep coming back to. ( ) So I’ll just let it go.
    No, I accept it's your opinion. It's just that you're wrong if you think it has anything to do with inferior function expression (the subject of this thread.) I know this because I know exactly what it's like to have a confrontation with my inferior, and I've also read other INTPs expressing similar experiences. There are common themes. And "tunnel vision" is not amongst them. If anything, we lose our usual clarity of thought, precision, and capacity for intense focus. It feels a bit like your brain has been scrambled. It becomes impossible to concentrate. You are incapable of making a rational decision. It's frightening, horrifying, even. Tunnel vision would be a God-send compared to iFe.
    You cannot know what it feels like from the inside. No matter how good you think your empathic skills are, you're kidding yourself. All you can be sure of is what it looks like to you. Anything else is sheer hubris. Why I keep coming back to this being some kind of projection, is because whenever people express a dogmatic opinion about your internal state that bears no relation to reality whatsoever, it usually is projection. Projection is, after all, the way we understand anything at all about what it is like to be human. The only way we can. Those of us humble enough to accept that not everyone sees the world the way we do, do not pretend to understand what's going on inside the hearts and minds of total strangers. Then there are the INFJs...

    Which is why my reply to you was not that we don't do many of the things that piss you off, just that the fact they piss you off, in itself, is nothing to condemn them for, nor a reason to judge them "inferior"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  4. #84
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Going against your dominant function will land you in confusion. In the standard model, your tertiary will simply back up your dominant outlook and "protect" you from stretching yourself (the so-called tertiary temptation). Thus the encouragement to consciously develop your aux in order to round out your relationship with reality.
    the standard model doesent include this tertiary temptation thing, its an theory added later by someone. imo the standard model would be jungs model, since thats where all of those things originate.

    yes, going against your dom might be quite confusing, since you are going against your ego there and inferior is trying to find its way under the control of ego, which requires some affirmation for the inferior. in the standard model, this affirmation comes from tert:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/t
    Tertium non datur
    The reconciling "third," not logically foreseeable, characteristic of a resolution in a conflict situation when the tension between opposites has been held in consciousness. (See also transcendent function.)


    As a rule it occurs when the analysis has constellated the opposites so powerfully that a union or synthesis of the personality becomes an imperative necessity. . . . [This situation] requires a real solution and necessitates a third thing in which the opposites can unite. Here the logic of the intellect usually fails, for in a logical antithesis there is no third. The "solvent" can only be of an irrational nature. In nature the resolution of opposites is always an energic process: she acts symbolically in the truest sense of the word, doing something that expresses both sides, just as a waterfall visibly mediates between above and below.["The Conjunction," CW 14, par. 705.]
    (the opposites in this case would be dom and inferior)

    when it comes to integrating inferior, tert works sort of as a conflict manager, not taking any sides on the dom-inferior battle, but offers an point of view to ego(which is governed by dom) based on inferior, but in a way that doesent conflict too much with the ego point of view. tert isnt repressed by the ego as much as inferior is, because the conflict between aux and tert isnt so huge, since the conflict really is between ego and personal unconscious and aux isnt as much used by the ego than dom is, functions are just tools which these two opposite sides(ego/shadow) use.

    but i think what you are talking about isnt really about developing inferior, what you are talking about is tert unconsciously acting in an ass kissing way to dom/ego and thats no way to develop the inferior. you see tert is in the same attitude to dom, which makes it easy for ego to take both dom and tert side of the things is aux is repressed due to the fear of the opposite attitude.

    ps. i had an personal experience about this, believed in beebean model and those whatevers, figured out myself that they are wrong, then read jung saying the same thing that i figured out myself.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #85
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Going against your dominant function will land you in confusion. In the standard model, your tertiary will simply back up your dominant outlook and "protect" you from stretching yourself (the so-called tertiary temptation). Thus the encouragement to consciously develop your aux in order to round out your relationship with reality.
    It comes direct from Jung:


    They tend to oppose each other/ cancel each other out. If they could live in harmony the notion of type would cease to exist... The whole point is that there is a dialectic tension between them and you are forced, via the process of individuation, to choose one over the other.

    I have never tried to use my inferior deliberately. It would be like voting for the Republican Party when I want the Democrats to win. Why would I do that? Would it make me more "well-balanced"? Or just confused...?

    According to Lenore, and in line with my own observations, INTPs have greater access to Fi (she places it third in our "type lasagne" after Ti/Ne). Thus it is easier for an INTP to develop Fi than to descend to the Fe depths. Which just makes more sense for the type which is perhaps the most independent-minded of all. I'm prepared to accept that other INTPs develop differently. But I haven't seen any evidence to support that.
    Hmm. I think I have tried it (using Fi conciously). Do you just not like using Fe? Cause I think I like using Fi when I think about it, and I have sometimes felt better using it. Am I misunderstanding something?


    I mean I understand what the overall picture with the whole Dem/Rep party thing of what's trying to be conveyed. But The way I understand MBTI is that the forth function in your case Fe, in mine Fi, would be the Aspirational Function. The function that "Drives" us. Where we have all of our inner desires. So I'm not sure about the analogy.




    "The Aspirational Role (Inferior)
    (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)

    The aspirational role usually doesn't develop until around midlife.

    We often experience it first in its negative aspect of projecting our "shoulds," fears, and negativities onto others.

    The qualities of these fears reflect the process that plays this role, and we are more likely to look immature when we engage in the process that plays this role. There is often a fairly high energy cost for using it even when we acquire the skill to do so.

    As we learn to trust it and develop it, the aspirational role process provides a bridge to balance in our lives. Often our sense of purpose, inspiration, and ideals have the qualities of the process that plays this role.


    The Pattern
    The pattern of the processes can be represented by a stick figure.

    At the head is the process we lead with, commonly called the Dominant.

    At the right hand is the process we use in a supportive way, commonly called the Auxiliary.

    At the left hand is the process we use in a relief-giving way, commonly called the Tertiary.

    And at the feet is what we aspire to, commonly called the Inferior.

    Since this process is what we aspire to be doing well, it is often what “makes our feet go” even when we are unaware of wanting to go in that direction.

    Think of the shadow processes as being situated just behind the stick figure to show that they are in the background. Just like a shadow, they are always there, but we are most often not actively using them."


    Sense of purpose...is what I get from this. Yes we have a leading role but I kinda think that we are really directed by our inferior. Almost like everyother function is "serving" it.

    So I'm not disagreeing with you...just tryin to understand what you understand. I think that going against the dom function leads to confusion too. I guess unless someone tries to Te their way to Fi in an ENTJ's case for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Since the inferior "function" is effectively non-functional (while buried in the unconscious) I would say it's closer to being an autonomous complex.
    What are "functions" though, really? Just habits of mind. Habits of attention. If we think about the physical implementation in terms of the way the brain works, those parts that are unused atrophy or get co-opted to do other stuff.

    If you were deprived of light, your brain would lose the capacity to process visual data and the visual cortex would get used for something else - auditory processing, perhaps, or olfactory. Your eyes would still function normally, but you'd be effectively blind, because you don't have functioning visual cortex. Similarly, if you are someone who constantly represses whatever "Se-ing" is in the brain, I would expect your capacity to "Se" to be undeveloped and difficult to access. The inferior isn't like some hidden talent we just haven't tapped into. It's genuinely inferior in every sense.

    Same with Fe. You don't exercise that part of your brain that integrates emotional cues from others or that activates sympathy, (or whatever "Fe-ing" is), it's going to wither away and get further and further from conscious use. Of course, you still have a limbic system, you still have all this data pouring in, you're just not doing anything useful with it, you don't have neuronal paths feeding that data to higher cortical awareness - you're not paying any attention to it - until the system backs up / gets overloaded. Which is what happens when you fall into the grip of your inferior. You become a helpless child again, and that pushes you to learn new ways of coping.
    Interesting analogy with the eyes.

    I am not sure I would use the word coping though, it gives it a sense that there a problem that's unfixable or something.



    you don't know me.

    Those of us humble enough to accept that not everyone sees the world the way we do, do not pretend to understand what's going on inside the hearts and minds of total strangers

    Which is why my reply to you was not that we don't do many of the things that piss you off, just that the fact they piss you off, in itself, is nothing to condemn them for, nor a reason to judge them "inferior"...

    I think you should have started out with this last sentence first lol I know that keeping in mind, that you're talking to people that need extenal validation first(myself included) is not Ti's way...lol But it can make it hard for someone that naturally needs that to then recieve critisim or critiquing. First of all cause you're right we don't know you. So how can we be sure the motives are in the right place? And then I think it also goes back to the thing we were talking about in Common INTJ issues. About how if things were just presented in a different light, motives would not be mistaken. My frustration with situations with Ti is that it thinks putting things in a different light is "coddling" someone. When it really isn't. It's just wording things differently for each individual person so that you don't get the same lashback again. So it's for Ti's self really, until someone gets to know the real you, knows that Ti is not always attacking when critiquing. This is just my opinion and it may not have anything to do with what you guys were talking about. lol
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    ISTJ
    That's old news. Pff.

  7. #87
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Since the inferior "function" is effectively non-functional (while buried in the unconscious) I would say it's closer to being an autonomous complex.
    What are "functions" though, really? Just habits of mind. Habits of attention. If we think about the physical implementation in terms of the way the brain works, those parts that are unused atrophy or get co-opted to do other stuff.
    Habit seems too weak a force to found a cognitive system.

    I have the vague idea that complexes look like molecules. They are bundles of cognitive items such as memories, thoughts, simple emotions, and they are possibly bound like Jung says around an archetype. Which is to say, in my words, the other thing that keeps these cognitive items together is some primitive form to which they all refer, and perhaps they are bound to that form by reason or perception or both. But we'd also find present in these bundles some cognitive items that weren't put there by conscious activity. They're like detritus in the conscious system--those aspects of experience that exist because the body (and maybe the mind) is capable of admitting them, but which the mind is not consciously interested in. For example, I rarely ever attend directly or at length to the details of physical memory, but there're still there. Archaic, not especially embellished or built up, subject to many effects that i don't understand and often avoid, but still there anyway.

    Functions on this scheme are the dominant cognitive qualities of complexes. Such complexes as exist in my mind will contain a lot of built up conceptual elements, and some recordings of abstracted standards, a few recognizable value judgments, and a handful of structures that are energized by immediate flows of physical information. And that's just the pieces of the complex that are available to consciousness. In terms of present content, the complex itself will be no smaller than those elements just described, and could possibly in fact be much larger.

    I conceive of the mind as being in theory one large complex, but in practice a great many smaller, interrelated complexes, some not, and some subject only to whatever goes on when the light of conscious attention shines elsewhere.

    Why is there such a system? Don't know. Why is conscious attention selective? Don't know, other than suggesting that a conscious system will collapse if there isn't a built in and inescapable channeling of libido. Why do complexes have dominant cognitive qualities? Maybe they don't. Probably there are some complexes that are not isomorphic to the person's overall type. But if consciousness demands a certain partisanship in willing attention then the closer they come to conscious attention, the more typed a complex becomes.

    So then what of an "inferior function"? I fudged the description up above when I said in my own mind there are "a handful of structures that are energized by immediate flows of physical information". It seems right to describe "Se" that way--as structures that are energized by immediate flows of physical information--but I don't know what this "energized" is, nor what these "structures" would really be.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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    Again, I'm gonna keep my commitments and respond accordingly to y'all when I can, but I must say the following while it's on my mind. It's a sidebar that's about my personal viewpoint and doesn't exactly approach the problem in a theoretical way. It might answer @EJCC's thing more directly than my first post did.

    If the thing that I was asked to clarify was how inferior Ti manifests, then I personally have no clue other than that I simply regard it as "not important in and of itself." For me, it may (may!) be (theoretically) loosely connected to certain aspects of my worldview, including my pragmatist stance; the sentiment that the truth is but one frame of reference (and that it may not be the most useful one, but often is); that logic is just one of a multitude of frameworks and perspectives ; and so on. I'm certainly described as analytical and logical in the colloquial sense, but I view a logical construct's purpose, relevance, utility (especially that which benefits humanity) as significantly trumping the exercise of logic in and of itself. I view logic as too often 'down in the weeds'.

    I struggle to make connections between inferior Ti and these other phenomena, though, because the connections just reek of toothpicks and mint gum. Forcing some such peg into some such hole, etc. So.. I say the above with about 25% confidence. Can't give it any more than that.

    But among my hats, I'm a scientist and model-builder, and I delve into philosophy by trade. Go figure. Knowing myself, I sincerely doubt that Ti could ever be considered to be scary, something that I don't "use" or "face", or that is even immature for me. It's just that I'm simply very much keen on the "so what?" factor above (virtually) all else.

    If there's some good insight into what inferior Ti is supposed to be, regardless of whether it applies to me, then I'm all ears because I don't know what the fuck.

    /halfasssd bologna mobile phone post

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    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ ENFP

    Inferior Ti manifests as fear that everything you did was a lie.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    If there's some good insight into what inferior Ti is supposed to be, regardless of whether it applies to me, then I'm all ears because I don't know what the fuck.
    I'm not sure why you keep changing your type. Are you certain you're Fe-Dom?

    According to Quenk:
    Quote Originally Posted by Inferior Ti
    [i]General optimism, enthusiasm, and interest in people give way to low energy, pessimism, and depression. Uncharacteristic withdrawal from usual activities and becoming highly critical of others are consistent responses for male and female ESFJs and ENFJs. “I’m different in being Introverted. I don’t make contact, call friends, go to social events, meetings, the theater. I may accept an invitation, but only if someone urges me. I get concerned about my health. I have no plans, no vision, the future is bleak. I am numb, without feeling or zest for life,” said an ESFJ. An ENFJ said, “I am quiet and withdrawn and want to be alone and reflect on what is happening.” Commented another, “I feel phony and uncomfortable, like a fish out of water. I am unable to be my usual spontaneous self.” Another ENFJ said, “I don’t make eye contact. I can’t share what is going on inside me. I feel tight and negative.” An ESFJ said, “I want to be alone—I’m uninterested in anyone else.”
    Jung’s (1976a) comment on the inferior function of Extraverted Feeling types touches on all three of these features:

    The unconscious of this type contains first and foremost a peculiar kind of thinking, a thinking that is infantile, archaic, negative. . . .The stronger the conscious feeling is and the more ego-less it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. . . . The unconscious thinking reaches the surface in the form of obsessive ideas which are invariably of a negative and deprecatory character. (p. 359)

    Tertiary Sensing and Intuition serve to support the negative judgments that are made. The tertiary Intuition of ESFJs generates vague, negative “hypotheses” that affirm their convoluted “logical” critical stance about themselves and others. ENFJs bring their tertiary Sensing to bear by coming up with negative past and present “facts” that support their complicated and largely illogical critical judgments. As energy continues to be withdrawn from the dominant and auxiliary functions, inferior Introverted Thinking intrudes in the form of excessive criticism, convoluted logic, and a compulsive search for truth. The comparison between dominant and inferior Introverted Thinking is shown in Table 8.

    Ti-dominant Types
    • Impersonal criticism
    • Logical analysis
    • Search for accuracy and truth

    Ti-inferior Types
    • Excessive criticism
    • Convoluted logic
    • Compulsive search for truth

    Excessive Criticism

    Effective dominant Introverted Thinking types critique ideas, products, systems, and methods. The inferior Introverted Thinking of Extraverted Feeling types appears in the form of a sweeping condemnation of people. In the grip of inferior Thinking, ESFJs and ENFJs may “dump” on other people, slam doors, yell, make biting comments, and say terse, blunt, or even cruel things to others. They often become physically tense, grit their teeth, clench their fists, and appear visibly agitated. Both Extraverted Feeling types frequently mention “laying a ‘guilt trip’” on those closest to them as responses to being in the grip.

    In the grip of inferior Thinking, the Extraverted Feeling types’ attempts at logical analysis take the form of categorical, all or none judgments that are often based on irrelevant data. A highly idiosyncratic “logical” model may be developed internally, but the resulting conclusions may violate good logic. In describing this quality, Von Franz (1971) stated that because Extraverted Feeling types’ Thinking is neglected, “it tends to become negative and coarse. It consists of coarse, primitive Thinking judgments, without the slightest differentiation and very often with a negative tinge” (p. 45). “My thinking becomes rigid and I insist on solving problems alone, with none of my typical sharing,” said one ENFJ. “I maintain a front, even though I feel unworthy. I am verbally critical, organize more, and become rigid, perfectionistic, and angry. I want the world to go away.” Another ENFJ described being “inside my head analyzing—adding two and two and getting five and knowing its right.”
    That last line is a classic example of the overconfidence Fe-doms can express in logic that is completely wrong. The more wrong and flawed their model, the more convinced they are that it's right and there is no reasoning with them.

    The other thing they tend to do is seek an expert and have a tendency to accept whatever they say without question.

    Instead of searching for a specific person who might provide them with needed answers, many Extraverted Feeling types report turning to lectures or books relevant to their current problem or isolating themselves to contemplate about issues that concern them; these types are often avid readers of self-help books. ESFJs and ENFJs agree that when stress occurs in some area of their lives, they search bookstore shelves for answers. One ENFJ had a wall full of books in his office. His colleague wondered how he could possibly have read all of them. The ENFJ reported that when under pressure to solve a big problem, he virtually devours the books, having many of them open at once, searching for expert advice on the problem at hand.

    When a stressful area is chronic or serious, Extraverted Feeling types tend to be attracted to support groups. In the company of others having similar experiences, they can find validation for their perceptions, as well as the latest expertise and thinking about the problem area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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