User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 108

  1. #61
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    The Te-Fi stuff in this thread has been pretty interesting. I've noticed a lot of how both users develop IRL as my sister is an ESTJ and I'm a INFP. After a lot of conflict over the years, I think we are both growing to respect each other's leading function and to see the purpose in it. It's just so fascinating to compare the way we are developing our own inferior functions - it makes our interactions that much more interesting and productive.

    To answer the questions (Fi dom, Te inferior):
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    How does your inferior function manifest itself?
    It provides structure, clarity and strength to my values, ideas, and decisions.

    One way it does this is through constant critique of my views and behaviour. It's often like a drill sergeant in my internal dialogue; it is very black and white in its reasoning and angry, uncompromising, brutally blunt in its approach. I feel like I have to answer to it; either I must force myself to accept and obey its demands (eg. be strong or 'realistic') or I must find satisfactory counter-arguments so I can silence it. This doesn't mean I don't sometimes ignore that voice, but when I do, I beat myself up a bit. To give an example about how it works: say I'm writing a post about some debated issue; when I go about that, I'm not just consulting my feelings/beliefs (Fi), I'm also trying to deflect and cover my ass against anticipated Te objections to those beliefs. So Te informs a lot of the way I frame and express Fi.

    Of course there's more to it than that but that's the most noticeable aspect.

    What personal issues do you relate to it
    Being judgemental, critical and unforgiving at times towards others and myself
    Losing my temper
    My know-it-all-ness
    Being perfectionistic/anal about certain things being right or exact
    Bossiness
    Arrogance
    Impatience
    Empathy shut-down (ie. deliberately refusing to listen to, understand, or accept mitigating circumstances) - this only happens in extreme circumstances

    I also feel like its the part of me that tells me I'm crap at things and a loser. It's that part that says success and worth can only be measured in external achievement. I don't believe that myself, but sometimes it can start to eat away at me.

    (BTW no offence TJs. I think all this is very poor usage of the function.)
    what have you done to better integrate your use and expression of this function?
    While I think taking a look at yourself, recognising your flaws and seeking to improve them is part of this, I feel like a lot of the development just comes with age. Over time I've come to accept that that drill sergeant as a part of myself rather than see it as a separate self in opposition to me, and this has reduced the struggle aspect. So increasingly, when those Te-qualities come out, more often they are in my own voice and not from the drill sergeant - it's a willing belief rather than begrudging acceptance of someone else's. Of course my brand of Te isn't like that drill sergeant's; it's softer and more palatable to my own taste.

    How successful have you been?
    I'm still working on it, but I think there has been genuine personal improvement.

    I stand up for myself more often, and when I do, I feel that I communicate my position with greater clarity, rather than simply stubbornly refusing to comply.

    It has taught me to draw a line in the sand more often. This isn't necessarily about conflict but more about owning what I feel and believe. There has to be a point where you choose a position, at least for your own benefit (althought I still don't consider it necessary to always openly express it). It's a bit lame to link to myself but I wrote about this with regards to art appreciation in my blog a while back and it's a good example of this.

    I also think it has helped me to reconcile my idealism with the (inevitable) resulting disillusionment. It's the part of me that says, "shit happens": things can't work out perfectly 100% of the time so learn to accept the imperfect model. It doesn't mean I stop reaching for the ideal solutions, it just means that I look for the best possible fit rather than expecting a flawless one. It helps reduce the amount of agonising I can go through when trying to make sense of a lose-lose situation.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #62
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Huh. Well, this is going to be as fun as drilling a 10-gauge titanium screw through my own hand, because the minutiae behind systems are boring and inconsequential as shit. But I'll play for a few posts.
    The nature of the inferior is hardly minutiae. It's at the heart of most of the problems of each "type". If you think the notion of "type" has any validity at all, you must address the consequences of unbalanced development that are implied within it. The inferior function is the means to do so. It's hard to imagine anything of greater consequence in typology...

    In fact, I have wondered if type emerges as a result of the inferior deficit - I.e. this is the seed around which the personality crystallises. So that the dominant function emerges as a defence against the pre-existence of the inferior-ity (rather than the inferior being a consequence of one function's 'natural' dominance).

    For those with inferior Fe and Te, this needs to be reconciled with the notion that Fe and Te are rational functions. How?
    It is reconciled by the i.
    Jung (and followers) use "rational" to imply "subject to conscious control" and operating according to a predictable logic. It follows that whatever is not under conscious control / acting in harmony with conscious goals is not rational.
    (He considered Sensing and Intuition to be "irrational" functions).

    In what way?
    In their manifestation.
    Quotes taken from Naomi Quenk's "Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality" as available here.
    "Effective dominant Introverted Feeling types use a finely developed awareness of their inner values as a reliable guide for judging themselves and others. In the grip of inferior Introverted Feeling, Extraverted Thinking types become hypersensitive to their own and others’ emotions, often misinterpreting comments from others as personal criticism. In their dominant approach, they typically interpret objectively offered criticism by respected colleagues as an appropriate means to promote excellence. In the grip of their inferior Introverted Feeling, they may easily take offense and overreact to such criticism."

    "Effective dominant Extraverted Feeling types readily share their values with others and are comfortable expressing their emotions. In the grip of inferior Extraverted Feeling, Introverted Thinking types may not differentiate between the expression of Feeling values and the expression of emotion. We may witness confusion between Feeling as a judging function and emotion as a state of physiological arousal. Jung (1976b) was explicit in his differentiation of the two: "What I mean by feeling in contrast to thinking is a judgment of value; agreeable or disagreeable, good or bad, and so on. Feeling so defined is not an emotion or affect, which is, as the words convey, an involuntary manifestation. Feeling as I mean it is a judgment without any of the obvious bodily reactions that characterize an emotion. Like thinking, it is a rational function." (p. 219)

    Nevertheless, it appears true that dominant Thinking types, especially those who favor Introversion, do not have ready access to their emotions when they are operating in their habitual, dominant mode. Often they report not knowing or being able to describe a feeling at the time it is occurring. Some INTPs, however, report being able to infer the presence of a feeling by attending to intuitive cues; it may be recounted later in Thinking, analytical terms. They fear that once in the realm of intense emotion, they may become possessed by it and never be able to get out. That is why descending into “the depths” is rare and entered into against the will of the Introverted Thinking type.

    Lack of familiarity with felt emotion is probably due to the fact that Thinking judgment typically excludes subjective values and affective data from the decision-making process. How the Thinking type or others feel about things may be judged irrelevant to the problem at hand and therefore as interfering with logical decision making. In contrast, Feeling types typically consider such data entirely relevant to their decisions. Their primary decision-making criteria include personal values, feelings, and consequences for important people and institutions. Due to limited experience, therefore, Thinking types' emotional expression lacks the differentiation and subtlety of feeling seen in well differentiated Feeling types. When positive feelings are involved, they may seem maudlin and sentimental. One INTP said she becomes “mushy, sentimental, very outwardly emotional, and unpredictably so.” A young ISTP said, “At times I feel really emotional when I'm by myself thinking about things that normally wouldn't bother me.” With greater intensity, inferior Feeling comes out as raw, extreme emotion."


    The relationship between unconscious and irrational manifestation of "Feeling" is hopefully made explicit in these excerpts.
    According to those who hold the notion that opposing functions (e.g Se/Ni, Te/Fi) work in conjunction with one another, this is outright false.
    Then they are mistaken. The prompting of the inferior can push one towards growth, but this growth is best achieved by developing the auxiliary function, not the inferior directly. The inferior tends to interfere with one's effectiveness and compromises the dominant function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Okay I glimpsed how an extraverted function could possibly have an ‘unconscious’ influence there for a moment, but now it’s gone.
    As discussed above, inferior extraverted functions do not work like their 'superior' cousins. They are shadows of those processes. They are inverted. So while Fe might be experienced as a benign ability to adapt oneself to the needs and opinions and values and standards of others, iFe experiences / judges those same needs and opinions and values and standards as malign, even hostile. The unconscious component arises in the projection - the hostility is internally generated but is ascribed to the environment.

    Se is experienced as a positive state of being in harmony with one's body and physical environment, as a state of unself-conscious "being" or flow. iSe is a negative experience of being cut-off from healthy expression of one's physicality, of being out-of-step, disconnected, self-conscious, clumsy, awkward, overwhelmed or out of control. The unconscious component again arises in the projection - the environment is not inherently dangerous or malignant - it is merely that the individual's ability to successfully navigate it is compromised/inferior.

    The nit-picking can just be part of the smoke and mirrors if it's used to derail and control the conversation (and even control other people- though that latter is really more an ENP problem) rather than furthering the exchange of ideas.
    How can you know what the motivation is? How can you know that you're not just shutting down and refusing to see something from another perspective? Isn't that a more forceful exercise of control?

    "Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

    What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment— the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drive. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

    An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: “I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me.” An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described “obsessing about details.”

    Se-dominant Types
    • Focus on external data
    • Seeking sensual/aesthetic pleasure
    • Delight in the outer world

    Se-inferior Types
    • Obsessive focus on external data
    • Overindulgence in sensual pleasure
    • Adversarial attitude toward the outer world

    An INFJ said, “I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do that thing I thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds.” “I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly,” reported another INFJ. “I nitpick about things in the environment. I bombard people verbally and obsess out loud.”

    One INTJ said, “I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike.” Another INTJ said, “If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself— but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there.” An INFJ observed, “I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have no energy to be bothered with anyone else.”

    Heh. "Stupid cupboard."
    I believe you are the one who once said that an ENTP will hurt your feelings and then make you apologize to them (whoever said it, I agree and it’s a good example of ‘ENTP controlled by their own unconscious impulses’) .
    You do have a good memory.
    With ENTPs we are talking about inferior Si. If this is an unconscious reaction (as opposed to a deliberate ploy), I guess it's possible that they register your pain as something to defend themselves against. This time we are dealing with not so much projection as introjection - which makes sense, because the inferior function in this case is introverted. Inferior functions essentially lead us to misattribute the cause of a problem or origin of an affect. This happens because we are conscious of the effect but unable to discern the origin - precisely because it originates in the part of our psyche we have disowned. Therefore, we wrongly determine that an internal conflict originates in a hostile environment, or conversely, we internalize a conflict that is rightly external. I have seen this effect of inferior Si in ENFPs too, who are, much of the time, oblivious to environmental cues that would bug / discomfort Sensors, but who can become withdrawn and even physically ill as a result of internalizing external conflict.

    NTP nit-picking can be geared to serving some hedonistic core. And the less they're willing to see it, the more control it has over 'what should be nit-picked'.
    It's kind of funny how you've just described something akin to inferior Se...

    I'm not saying this is something all NTPs do- just like not all TJs are ruled by some dogmatic irrational core and all FJs aren't ruled by batshit projection. I'm just saying that's what the NTP pitfall looks like: solipsistic meandering
    Well, I know what my own pitfalls are, and mistaking accuracy for something else is not one of them. Nor is this something I can say is true of other NTPs. They have an unparalled ability to cut through all the extraneous crap and get to the heart of a problem.

    Nit-picking is definitely something I see more of in IxxJs than NTPs (and is supported by the observations/theory above). The NTP focus is usually on "the big picture". I find myself frequently frustrated with the IxxJ tendency to miss the forest for the trees - obsessively focussing on criticising irrelevant details rather than the meat of an argument. I could cite many examples just from this forum..

    NTPs are sometimes guilty of hair-splitting - taking precision too far; pedantry. (You might say I am nit-picking about this distinction - but you'd be wrong. I'm hair-splitting. )

    Actually small distinctions and nuances in meaning can be important. If they were not we'd still be grunting in caves...
    Nit-picking, on the other hand, doesn't contribute anything to a discussion other than a negative vibe.

    Js have more access to stored information, particularly IxxJs, I think. And paying attention to the external world is taxing. I only need to touch a scalding hot pan handle once or twice to realize it's something to be avoided, or (on a lesser scale) watch a couple of Soderbergh movies to realize I don't get much out of Soderbergh movies. When I see indications that observations I've made should be modified- e.g. if I observe someone grabbing the handle of a hot pan without negative consequences- then I'll reconsider the precedent I've set for myself.
    How can you have more access to stored information, if you tend to close down an avenue of exploration after a negative experience?
    But until I see some reason for reconsidering, repeating an action which will likely yield unfortunate consequences is just a senseless waste of energy and time. INJs don’t like being tied down to superfluous interaction with the external world and we avoid it where we can, just like NPs don’t like superfluous rules restricting their interaction with the external environment.
    Drawing an analogy between the unequivocally harmful effects of touching a scalding pan and communicating with an NTP seems rather ... extreme. How very inferior Se of you though...

    And it's only an ad hominem if the reason for dismissal does not directly apply to the reason something is dismissed.
    Actually, no (and I'm not hair-spliiting). It's ad hominem if you dismiss it because of who made it (or the reason you think they made it) rather than objectively assessing the argument on its own merits.
    In fact, in this case, (especially in light of your scalding pan analogy) it looks a lot like prejudice - you have had some negative interactions with NTPs, so you assume that NTPs argue in bad faith and feel that qualifies you to dismiss their arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    For me, I think the shutting down is because the emotion is there and I can’t really figure out what’s causing it, so I need to chalk it up to ‘this person is too different from me’ and leave it alone.
    Chalking it up to difference is definitely better than chalking it up to bad faith.

    I too feel there are fundamental differences between Ps and Js which make communication difficult. When I disagree with NPs, I always at least understand where they are coming from and why we disagree. I cant say the same for NJs. The outlook is oftentimes so alien to me...
    I keep coming back to brain-hemisphere dominance, because it's such a neat way to explain why we struggle to see things from the other's point of view - and why we often conclude that the other point of view is "inferior".

    Of course, I’m also e5, so the ‘shutting down’ may be related to that as well- but it really does seem to me like a common INFJ problem.
    Hence, the "INFJ doorslam".

    I'm e5 and I don't react in this way - when I don't understand something my response is to keep pushing for more and more information. I actually find ambiguity energising. Certainty is what shuts me down / turns me off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #63
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Si

    I love to clean baseboards....not love, I just cant handle them having stuff on them. I want the house to "look" clean, but that can mean shoving the mess into drawers...just as long as I cant see it.

    I want to be sure that a list of "things to do" is complete before I can relax-the list can be very stressful in itself. Some of the stuff on the list is optional-like mop the kitchen floor, while other things must be done-like washing the kids clothing.

    I like to do home remodelling-I feel the need to make things look the way they "should" look, not the way they are...a need to bring things back to a state of consistency. This will conflict with my need to do things differently in exploration, thus I will put an object in a different place everytime

    FiSi is a son of a bitch and leads one to whine and be very "below the line" in terms of action. It can lead to noticeable pouting and inaction and a desire to blame others rather than take ownership and plan and act on the issue.

    Si also will develop a plan than be very resistant to changes in the plan, as a moral value has been placed upon the plan-it feels "bad" to change the plan and insulting to have another rudely ignore the planned effort...this is a REAL Achilles heel for me and an area I have to constantly watch out for.

    A fixation of specific datapoints as markers for holistic flow and an intolerance for shifts in those specific sign posts. This leads to invalidation of ideas that dont explicitly use those same signposts-a bad, bad thing

    Good things about Si ? nostalgia, timelessness, the library of sensations used for comparative purposes. Being able to smell and taste the grass of a warm summer day, even on the coldest winter morning. tasting the ocean while eating an olive. A sense that we are together, we are a part of a united whole that encompasses the timeless aspect of humanity-certain truths will always be true. Consistency...the future can be planned as the past has laid out...it mostly works out that way, and even if it diverges, it diverges in the same way it has done countless times before. A meeting of the eyes, nodding of the head and inner knowing that the other person gets it.

  4. #64
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Si

    I love to clean baseboards....not love, I just cant handle them having stuff on them. I want the house to "look" clean, but that can mean shoving the mess into drawers...just as long as I cant see it.

    I want to be sure that a list of "things to do" is complete before I can relax-the list can be very stressful in itself. Some of the stuff on the list is optional-like mop the kitchen floor, while other things must be done-like washing the kids clothing.

    I like to do home remodelling-I feel the need to make things look the way they "should" look, not the way they are...a need to bring things back to a state of consistency. This will conflict with my need to do things differently in exploration, thus I will put an object in a different place everytime

    FiSi is a son of a bitch and leads one to whine and be very "below the line" in terms of action. It can lead to noticeable pouting and inaction and a desire to blame others rather than take ownership and plan and act on the issue.

    Si also will develop a plan than be very resistant to changes in the plan, as a moral value has been placed upon the plan-it feels "bad" to change the plan and insulting to have another rudely ignore the planned effort...this is a REAL Achilles heel for me and an area I have to constantly watch out for.

    A fixation of specific datapoints as markers for holistic flow and an intolerance for shifts in those specific sign posts. This leads to invalidation of ideas that dont explicitly use those same signposts-a bad, bad thing

    Good things about Si ? nostalgia, timelessness, the library of sensations used for comparative purposes. Being able to smell and taste the grass of a warm summer day, even on the coldest winter morning. tasting the ocean while eating an olive. A sense that we are together, we are a part of a united whole that encompasses the timeless aspect of humanity-certain truths will always be true. Consistency...the future can be planned as the past has laid out...it mostly works out that way, and even if it diverges, it diverges in the same way it has done countless times before. A meeting of the eyes, nodding of the head and inner knowing that the other person gets it.

  5. #65
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Well it’s not like it’s intentional. It’s more like- if a glass is already full of water, then no matter how much you try to pour more water into it you won’t be able to get it to hold more water. So it’s not like a boundary was asserted, but more like a threshold was met and interaction became unbearable. For me, I think the shutting down is because the emotion is there and I can’t really figure out what’s causing it, so I need to chalk it up to ‘this person is too different from me’ and leave it alone.

    And I really can’t speak for all INFJs- it’s just my experience and it seems like the experience of the INFJs I happen to have gotten to know well enough- having that uncertainty, and having a really hard time narrowing down possibilities for why other people say or do what they do- seems to actually be a common thread for us. We do get the instant stories/explanations that unzip in our heads, but it’s pretty much always accompanied by an exaggerated concern that we don’t have the whole story- that’s the part that I think indicates Ni over Fe. It really is more of a “I don’t know what the truth is, I just know what you’re telling me doesn’t add up.” Of course, I’m also e5, so the ‘shutting down’ may be related to that as well- but it really does seem to me like a common INFJ problem.
    Yeah I guess I am just not good at identifying what I should chalk up to "irreconcilable differences" or when other people are just being stupid. :/

    I tend to want to learn so badly that I wind up trusting people. Then becoming angry that I did that because they suck...And I blame all parties involved including myslef. I also don't seem to learn easily from this. I feel like what would make me better at doing this is Ni...but maybe I need enough emotion behind stuff to do anything.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  6. #66
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The relationship between unconscious and irrational manifestation of "Feeling" is hopefully made explicit in these excerpts.
    Then they are mistaken. The prompting of the inferior can push one towards growth, but this growth is best achieved by developing the auxiliary function, not the inferior directly. The inferior tends to interfere with one's effectiveness and compromises the dominant function.
    I have heard this before, I think from Lenore. And I have looked into the auxilary function being the best to develop to achieve growth. It's still difficult for me to get a grasp on.

    But for me the new information you present,is that if you go through the inferior directly it tends to interfere...? Do you believe this to be true? Have you had experience with it I mean? I can sorta understand how it can compromise the dom function a little...but wouldn't they sooner or later live in harmony? Like if you were Conciously using the inferior..?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  7. #67
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    In a long and interesting journey, I paused here a moment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Se is experienced as a positive state of being in harmony with one's body and physical environment, as a state of unself-conscious "being" or flow. iSe is a negative experience of being cut-off from healthy expression of one's physicality, of being out-of-step, disconnected, self-conscious, clumsy, awkward, overwhelmed or out of control. The unconscious component again arises in the projection - the environment is not inherently dangerous or malignant - it is merely that the individual's ability to successfully navigate it is compromised/inferior.
    The bolded is true, but makes "iSe" be the complex surrounding inferior extroverted sensing rather than be the sensing itself. Although, it is an interesting question, is inferior sensing an actual function or is it the complex representation of the rejection of an actual function? If it's the latter, that's kind of interesting for psychology theory because it seems to me possible--sometimes, and with caution--to engage inferior functions as if they were actual functions.


    /resumes reading
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #68
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    in order to work with your inferior, you need to go against of your dominant function and become aware of your tert
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  9. #69
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I have seen INTPs fall into the trap of simulating Fe. Of using Ti to puzzle out the logic behind social mores and behave in ways that mirror their background. The so-called "chameleon" effect. This tends to lead to stunted development and a deeply cynical / shallow personality. It is not "developed" Fe, it is a defense against it. Of course, like all defenses they are seldom aware of it.
    @Kalach, this description that Salome posted pretty well encapsulates the Ti/Fe equivalent of Te-ing your way to Fi, and is exactly what I'm afraid of doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Think of it this way: consensus in the books is that the secondary function serves the dominant--that, say, in an INTJ, Thinking serves to flesh out the intuition. I imagine that we can infer that the inferior serves at least the dominant as well.

    So, if I were to take a first-stab at how this plays out in me, I'll say that I don't tend to 'do' logic for its own sake. Unified theories don't make me happy; meaningful unified theories that have societal benefit tend to.
    I'm intrigued by your perspective here because it seems to be an easy resolution to the problem. It streamlines everything, which is always sexy. And in some ways I feel there is truth to what you've written here. For me, Fi confers a certain rightness to the vision of Ni. But I feel that to stop at such a superficial understanding of the inferior isn't particularly satisfactory because it lacks a certain dynamic tension, and is likely to just cause personal stagnation as a result. Growth requires recognition of an imbalance.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So my question would be: how should one go about separating the two? Type descriptions of ExTJs and IxTPs say similar things about how they will not show much emotion except when under the influence of the inferior, so how should you distinguish feeling and Feeling when they're so intertwined?
    This is an excellent question, and probably the crux of what prompted me to start the thread. In my own experience, it's a process that requires not just intellectual understanding, but direct experience. I will most likely always be a little clumsy when it comes to Fi, but I work at it anyways. Similar to what @ mentioned about the importance of yoga as an integrative practice, meditation has been absolutely vital for me. Being able to sit with myself, and access my emotions in a way that's safe and controlled has been invaluable.

    It's a bit like unravelling a ball of yarn, I suppose. The initial conscious experience of the inferior is like finding an end to the string. When you catch that end you get that first little bit of insight, the feeling aspect of Fi, which is its most basic expression. Something as simple as the impact the events of the day might have had on you. Then, with time, you unspool the string a little more, and with it your understanding of feeling becomes more sophisticated. You go from understanding your own internal states to attempting to empathize with what the internal states of those around you might be. Then you go from that empathy to increasingly valuing the internal states of others such that they're of equal value and merit as your own. The significance of direct experience is that it's one thing to just read the words I've typed, and quite another to experience it yourself. Life-altering, in fact. And how you end up using your dominant function will be irrevocably changed as a result.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    in order to work with your inferior, you need to go against of your dominant function and become aware of your tert
    Trust the INTP to steal my thunder with a single line.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #70
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Trust the INTP to steal my thunder with a single line.


    and if you dont go against the dom and just try to work the inferior through dom, it will look like an unhealthy version of inferior function in opposite attitude
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] integration of the inferior
    By Feline in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-02-2014, 09:17 PM
  2. The Form of the Inferior - ITPs
    By Cegorach in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 09-05-2011, 10:50 AM
  3. Explaining the Inferior in terms of the Dominant
    By VagrantFarce in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-12-2010, 10:12 PM
  4. Mixing the inferior with the dominant function
    By Oaky in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-09-2010, 06:25 PM
  5. What happens when the inferior first kicks in at a young age?
    By BlackCat in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 12-07-2009, 08:21 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO