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  1. #41
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Based on what @Salomé said, I'm wondering if the inferior function just bothers T-doms a lot more than it bothers other people.

    I haven't heard of any other types having that extreme a relationship with their inferior function --
    Heh. Try this one:
    In its extreme form, the grip experience of Introverted Thinking types may manifest as a feeling of profound and infinite separateness from the whole of humanity.

    They fear that once in the realm of intense emotion, they may become possessed by it and never be able to get out. That is why descending into “the depths” is rare and entered into against the will of the Introverted Thinking type.

    With greater intensity, inferior Feeling comes out as raw, extreme emotion.

    Feeling judgment seems to become increasingly exaggerated and obsessive, reaching a point where it no longer serves a judging purpose but becomes unbridled emotionalism.
    The IxTP experience of iFe is akin to hysteria. For INTPs, paranoia can be a not uncommon manifestation.

    which isn't to say that I won't be easily convinced to the contrary, but the dynamic on this thread suggests that my hypothesis is correct, in addition to @Kalach's posts about Te-dominance being what led to the creation of this thread in the first place.
    I think you're right. I have always maintained that Ts are more broken than Fs.

    But, if you think about it, it's logical that primitive and raw feeling would be scarier / more disorienting than primitive and raw thinking. Not least because we are all equipped to experience emotion, whether we want to or not, but we are not all equipped to understand the inadequacies of our own thinking... Experiencing a rigid (though delusional) certainty is not necessarily distressing for the feeler (however frustrating it may be for the people who have to deal with the consequences of that individual's faulty thinking). Experiencing an extreme and primitive emotional outburst (your own or someone else's) is always distressing for a thinker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  2. #42
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    For example, with NFJs I’ve known- I’ve seen a tendency to jump to conclusions about the meaning of another person’s actions or words. Stories (explanations of ‘why) sort of instantly unzip in our heads for why other people do or say what they say or do- and it takes conscious effort to realize we aren’t actually seeing why *they* said or did it….we’re seeing why *we* would say or do it (iow: what it would mean if we said or did it ourselves). The benefit of pulling Ti ‘out of the shadows’ for NFJs is we can be aware that the way we make sense of the world isn’t necessarily because what we’re gleaming is the irrefutable truth about other people so much as it’s the truth about what it would mean if we were the ones saying or doing it. The less in touch an FJ is with the extent to which the way Ti ‘makes sense’ of others’ behavior according to our own limited experience of the world, the more we impulsively believe the first story (or ‘apparent causation’) that pops into our head is ‘clearly’ the truth.
    This is a great point and one im not going to deny I am quite guilty of. In fact there is some pretty damning evidence of me doing this on these forums.
    It's something to understand and rectify. The difficulty in doing this is of course great, but that is all part of the challenge and with that difficulty comes the greater reward, not for yourself alone; but also for those around you.

    Ive read it can be an issue with most judging types, whether the judging function is primary or secondary, to jump to a conclusion or decision on an insufficient amount of evidence. Possibly this is more likely with feeling functions than thinking ones, but that may just be my bias towards people oriented judgements, as opposed to considering this in a non-people related context.

    This may be more evident among those with extraverted judging functions as primary or secondary. Perceiver's might experience the opposite, as in taking a long time to come to a conclusion or decision. Although all people are capable of being judgmental, the interesting point is in how that manifests.


    I do know for sure that one of my issues is not standing back long enough to take in enough information.

    As a result I do a lot of backtracking and inefficient catching up in conversations as I suddenly clock on to the data that has now presented itself.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #43
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Theoretically it's supposed to be more an ENFJ thing, and I'm inclined to think the INFJs who get that way lean in that direction (towards being on the cusp of E) because Ni makes it difficult to cling so confidently to a first impression.
    ...
    I can’t help but think when people complain about INFJs being this way- they’re actually dealing with something closer to an especially introverted ENFJ.
    I disagree. I see far more evidence of this in Infjs than Es. Perhaps because the Es greater facility with Fe moves them to be more understanding, accepting and (paradoxically?) less judgemental.
    I reckon this observation holds for all ExFJs - they tend to be warmer / more accepting than IxFJs.
    I’m really not sure what influence ‘inferior Se’ has exactly, I don’t have much of a handle on that.
    @Kalach has mentioned that it can manifest as an exaggerated fear for physical security. I also think that INFJs can share with INTJs a pretty complicated relationship with their own (and others') sexuality. In the former it can look like frigidity but can mask something more... extreme.
    While Te aux lends a dogmatic aspect to the impersonal realm, Fe aux can lend a dogmatic aspect to the personal one - i.e. a proscriptive morality informed by the same converging certainty of the Ni "vision".
    Whereas, I think Fe-Dom morality tends to be more prescriptive than proscriptive (because it suffers fewer negative vibes from the promptings of inferior Se).

    Maybe...
    /making it up as she goes along
    But I suspect 'inferior Fi' and 'inferior Ti' are similar regardless of S or N.
    I think they express quite differently. I suspect (and my experience bears this out) Ns tend to be more susceptible to neurotic manifestations than Ss, simply because they are less grounded in reality to start with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Actually, I think INTPs (and any type) are just as susceptible to their own version of tunnel vision- I wouldn’t say it’s an opposite problem so much as the same problem with an opposite kind of tunnel vision. That “sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to” is a sort of tunnel vision unto itself.
    That is not how it feels. The experience is one of ever-expanding vision, with little objective criteria to chose amongst those vistas. Socrates expressed it best when he said the only thing he could be certain of was his own uncertainty. (He called that "wisdom", ymmv.) And Descartes, who could only be certain of his own existence because he was so preoccupied by being uncertain about everything else. In a sense, you are right that we cling to uncertainty as rigidly as Js cling to certainty. Those are our respective comfort zones.
    It may be infuriating to deal with a Je’er who is having a hard time working your Ji input into their cognitive purview, especially if that Je’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the mercy of their own unconscious impulses …..but hot damn if it isn’t just as infuriating for us Js to deal with a Pe’er whose unconscious Pi makes them impulsively cling to every capricious whim, completely resistant to incorporate our Pi input into their cognitive purview. When a Pe’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the direction of their own unconscious impulses- as opposed to being aware of the influence inferior Pi has- they NEED to grab hold of those capricious whims (the less conscious Pi impulses are, the stronger that pull)…..and in Ti’ers, it takes the form of grabbing on to every single tiny immediate argument that comes to mind with no regard for the extent to which they’re only pulling up arguments that suit their immediate purpose (there’s no consistency- it’s all about arguing whatever gets them what they want in that moment).
    This is confusing because Ti-doms do not have inferior / unconscious Pi, they have inferior Je. Perhaps you are thinking of Pe-doms..

    In exaggerated cases- just like it’s obvious to other people when Je’ers are clinging to some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge- it’s just as ‘obvious’ to others when Pe’ers are shape-shifting some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge. The difference is that Je clings whole hog to a ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) which was already in place in their cognitive purview, and Pe clings whole hog to a brand new ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) regardless of how much it contradicts the ‘truth’ (which was blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) they were arguing 10 minutes ago. It all comes across as biased pigheadedness, but from different directions.
    Hmmm. I have to wonder if you aren't just falling prey to the kind of cognitive error you accused your type of earlier?

    It is surely contradictory to accuse us both of "clinging" "pigheadedly" to our views and also of whimsicality... Though I agree, it can look like this to others, in fact, on things that matter to us, we are steadfast - it's just that not very much matters to us. Or not to the same extent that it does to those who require more certainty / who fear ambiguity. In fact, some of the most steadfast people I know are Pe-dom/aux. And it has the advantage of not having an irrational quality to it - because they have Pe-d their way through most every eventuality, until finding the one that resonates with Ji - which makes them far more open to discussion - they have no fear that their belief will be shaken or threatened in any way. Close-minded people close their minds because they are fearful of the influence of others and uncertain of the strength of their convictions.

    The thing you find frustrating - the way we drift from one semi-solid state to another ("shape-shifting" -nice) trying them on for size - this is the only way for us to approximate certainty about anything. (And we never quite feel comfortable there). If we were a metal, we'd be mercury - liquid at room temperature, quickly responding to changes in atmospheric pressure, but not incapable of holding a crystalline form. You guys would be lead - all but impenetrable, and fucking hard to melt.

    Playing Devil's Advocate is a way of achieving a richer and more complex view of a subject area. Ti tends to need something to oppose in order to understand anything fully. If you think about any of the great insights into the true nature of physical reality it has been accomplished by this kind of tension or opposition. It can seem destructive, or like a bloody-minded attempt to frustrate by onlookers, but it's actually the source of much creativity and the quickest route to truth - you only need one valid, anomalous observation to falsify a hypothesis, so working through all the harmonious observations is wasted effort. And Ti loves economy almost as much as truth.
    Agreement does not stimulate our intellect, or satisfy a (non-existent) desire for harmony. We don't trust harmony. Harmony is a breeding ground for sloppy, soft-focussed thinking. The mistake is that we can come to trust discord (wrongly) believing that it doesn't have a hidden, negative agenda (which, of course, it often does).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #44
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Heh. Try this one:
    The IxTP experience of iFe is akin to hysteria. For INTPs, paranoia can be a not uncommon manifestation.
    This makes sense. It's interesting that both IxTPs and ExTJs tend to feel so unmoored from everything that they had once relied upon, when they're in the grip of Feeling. Interesting that it's kind of a control issue, for both types.
    I think you're right. I have always maintained that Ts are more broken than Fs.
    I'm not sure about this -- but I will say that T-doms probably have more deep-seated issues with their emotions. (Consider the thread I started a while ago, on anger!) It isn't just a little bit awkward, or frustrating, when emotions pop up out of nowhere -- you literally feel like you're coming unglued. And what's worse is, other people may perceive you the same way. I know an INTP, usually very sweet and calm, who had such a severe outburst that his wife threatened to call the cops. In school, I was reported to the principal once or twice for similar things, though I'd like to think that I have a better hold on my emotions now. But in my opinion, these things did not happen to me and to the INTP because of the severity of the emotional reaction, on its own, but because of its severity relative to our usual behavior, i.e. because we're usually so level-headed, logical, reasonable, that an emotional explosion freaks everyone else out too -- which we T-doms may see as yet another reason to remain out of touch with our feelings, to not show our emotions in a healthy way. And the cycle continues.
    But, if you think about it, it's logical that primitive and raw feeling would be scarier / more disorienting than primitive and raw thinking. Not least because we are all equipped to experience emotion, whether we want to or not, but we are not all equipped to understand the inadequacies of our own thinking... Experiencing a rigid (though delusional) certainty is not necessarily distressing for the feeler (however frustrating it may be for the people who have to deal with the consequences of that individual's faulty thinking). Experiencing an extreme and primitive emotional outburst (your own or someone else's) is always distressing for a thinker.
    Interesting. Rings true for me, but it'd be interesting to hear a F-dom's perspective on it.
    @gromit? @Saturned? @bologna?
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  5. #45
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    Uhhmm, nothing to add except that Feeling has fuck-all to do with experiencing raw positive/negative emotion. It's those common misconceptions that lead me to want to abandon the system altogether. Even Lenore and others refer to Fe as a rational function, along the lines of Te but with a different flavor.

    I'll just prattle on about the thing that I normally prattle on about when this comes up: While there's only a loose correlation between MBTI test results and JCF, the Feeling dichotomy isn't itself correlated to neuroticism.

    So, not so much a 'perspective' as much as a 'fact-correction,' I guess.

  6. #46
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Uhhmm, nothing to add except that Feeling has fuck-all to do with experiencing raw positive/negative emotion with no rational thought. Even Lenore and others refer to Fe as a rational function, along the lines of Te but with a different flavor.
    Not sure whose comments you were referring to, but if mine, then I apologize for articulating myself so poorly. Inferior F can feel a lot like that, ime -- even if it isn't, necessarily -- because it's so ignored and undeveloped; it would definitely be more rational in the dominant position. Sorry about that.

    We had just been talking about how inferior T would be experienced by dominant Fs, i.e. whether it's as terrifying as inferior F is for us T-doms -- which is why I'd tagged you.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Not sure whose comments you were referring to, but if mine, then I apologize for articulating myself so poorly. Inferior F can feel a lot like that, ime -- even if it isn't, necessarily -- because it's so ignored and undeveloped; it would definitely be more rational in the dominant position. Sorry about that.

    We had just been talking about how inferior T would be experienced by dominant Fs, i.e. whether it's as terrifying as inferior F is for us T-doms -- which is why I'd tagged you.
    No, I mean to respond to you in the following way: the thing you quoted doesn't resonate with me. I haven't read the thread, so I'm not sure where it's from (website, article, etc.); but it doesn't resonate with me mostly because.. well, it's flat out wrong. It makes the common mistake of conflating Feeling with.. .. you know, feeling. (Also, it's definitely not that it hurts my feelings, that it wounds me at the core, that I take it personally, or any other Feeling stereotype.)

    Sorry for the misconception, tone, etc. I'm happy to try to help out with my perspective, even though JCF makes me want to stab myself in the brain. Which itself leads to the following.

    Think of it this way: consensus in the books is that the secondary function serves the dominant--that, say, in an INTJ, Thinking serves to flesh out the intuition. I imagine that we can infer that the inferior serves at least the dominant as well.

    So, if I were to take a first-stab at how this plays out in me, I'll say that I don't tend to 'do' logic for its own sake. Unified theories don't make me happy; meaningful unified theories that have societal benefit tend to.

    And this whole discussion of mine has been an exercise in me using a logical system that I don't care about for its own sake, in order to 'translate' my perspective into understandable terms, because that might be useful to y'all. That in and of itself probably says something.


  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Not sure whose comments you were referring to, but if mine, then I apologize for articulating myself so poorly. Inferior F can feel a lot like that, ime -- even if it isn't, necessarily -- because it's so ignored and undeveloped; it would definitely be more rational in the dominant position. Sorry about that.

    We had just been talking about how inferior T would be experienced by dominant Fs, i.e. whether it's as terrifying as inferior F is for us T-doms -- which is why I'd tagged you.
    I run from Te most of the time. I know I am an F, but overall I desire to be calm and collected and most of all under control emotionally. I may be all fluffy zingyness on the outside, but inside I operate best when my seas are calm and quiet and at peace. The problem is when something bothers my inner peace to the point where I have to express it somehow. Te wants to assert dominance and control of a situation and I can keep that in check most of the time, unless Fi is all riled up. Fi empowered Te is like, get out of my way and pray you aren't the target. I rarely allow the two to line up and plot mischief for this very reason.

    In the best of times though, Te is extremely useful for expressing Fi's inner most thoughts in a clear and concise manner. When everything lines up within me... my inner compass of Fi shows me what I am feeling/thinking about something, and Te delivers that message very directly and simply to the world beyond.

    I just tend to run from influencing others so much, and hiding my own opinions and thoughts. I am currently working on changing that and being more bold and Having Open Opinions. It's rather illuminating for me.
    @EJCC, @Wind-Up Rex, and @YWIR have all been good influences on me by showing me Te in its dominant position and how that looks. It gives me a better concept of how it can function within me... even if I am rather clumsy at it at first.

  9. #49
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    This is all kind of off-topic from what Salome and I were talking about but technically you're getting us back on topic, so thanks for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    No, I mean to respond to you in the following way: the thing you quoted doesn't resonate with me. I haven't read the thread, so I'm not sure where it's from (website, article, etc.); but it doesn't resonate with me mostly because.. well, it's flat out wrong. It makes the common mistake of conflating Feeling with.. .. you know, feeling. (Also, it's definitely not that it hurts my feelings, that it wounds me at the core, that I take it personally, or any other Feeling stereotype.)
    I was quoting Salome, from her post at the very top of this page.

    You're right that it does conflate the two, and I have sometimes thought about that. But I think they're easily confused with T-doms, because a lot of feelings (lowercase) don't get released except in periods of intense stress, when we'll blow up somehow -- and times of stress are when inferior Feeling (uppercase) is technically supposed to show itself. Inferior Feeling will pop up as the direct result of a stressor, but will always have incredibly strong feeling tied to it; one Te/Fi example (b/c I can't speak for Ti/Fe at all, here), is if you've been trying to get something done that you consider to be extremely important, and someone has been getting in your way. You can't understand why they're doing it. You get increasingly angry. Maintaining composure and staying on task -- i.e. using Te at your usual level of skill -- becomes more and more difficult. And then you finally blow up at them. Someone -- maybe the person at fault, maybe a friend -- get one or two minutes of intense rage, in the form of a rant that begins with a focus and gradually generalizes and deteriorates. Why in the hell is this person standing in the way of this project, they ought to know that it's the best option, I'm just trying to do the right thing and how can they be so blind, I've put in all this hard work and they fucking walk all over me, why does this always happen to me, why am I surrounded by idiots. And then, after the rant, they may become withdrawn, and the deterioration will continue internally: Maybe I'm not surrounded by idiots, maybe the idiot is me, I must have done something wrong but I'm too stupid to know what it is, oh god why do I fail at everything I do, there was this one time I failed, and then this other time, why do I ever get hired for anything, why does anyone like me.

    And then, once calmed down, the Te-dom may have this thought process: I hate feeling like that, I hate getting so upset and feeling so insecure, but I never feel like that except in massive amounts in situations like that, the rest of the time I feel fewer emotions and I feel them in moderation. So you start to associate those feelings with Feeling, because it's only under Feeling's influence that you recognize that they exist.

    So my question would be: how should one go about separating the two? Type descriptions of ExTJs and IxTPs say similar things about how they will not show much emotion except when under the influence of the inferior, so how should you distinguish feeling and Feeling when they're so intertwined?
    Think of it this way: consensus in the books is that the secondary function serves the dominant--that, say, in an INTJ, Thinking serves to flesh out the intuition. I imagine that we can infer that the inferior serves at least the dominant as well.

    So, if I were to take a first-stab at how this plays out in me, I'll say that I don't tend to 'do' logic for its own sake. Unified theories don't make me happy; meaningful unified theories that have societal benefit tend to.

    And this whole discussion of mine has been an exercise in me using a logical system that I don't care about for its own sake, in order to 'translate' my perspective into understandable terms, because that might be useful to y'all. That in and of itself probably says something.

    That's a really nice way of looking at integrating the inferior. Thanks for this.

    Check it out, @Wind-Up Rex
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is all kind of off-topic from what Salome and I were talking about but technically you're getting us back on topic, so thanks for that.

    I was quoting Salome, from her post at the very top of this page.

    You're right that it does conflate the two, and I have sometimes thought about that. But I think they're easily confused with T-doms, because a lot of feelings (lowercase) don't get released except in periods of intense stress, when we'll blow up somehow -- and times of stress are when inferior Feeling (uppercase) is technically supposed to show itself.
    Though, we've got a dominant (secondary?) feeler expressing something very similar--y'know, the whole 'letting something get bottled up and then exploding' thing:
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I run from Te most of the time. I know I am an F, but overall I desire to be calm and collected and most of all under control emotionally. I may be all fluffy zingyness on the outside, but inside I operate best when my seas are calm and quiet and at peace. The problem is when something bothers my inner peace to the point where I have to express it somehow. Te wants to assert dominance and control of a situation and I can keep that in check most of the time, unless Fi is all riled up. Fi empowered Te is like, get out of my way and pray you aren't the target. I rarely allow the two to line up and plot mischief for this very reason.
    At least, I think so. At least, they sound very much like two sides of very, very similar phenomenon.

    So my question would be: how should one go about separating the two? Type descriptions of ExTJs and IxTPs say similar things about how they will not show much emotion except when under the influence of the inferior, so how should you distinguish feeling and Feeling when they're so intertwined?
    Fi and Fe are about moral compasses and what's right and wrong, or whatever. Y'all know the drill.

    In contrast, stress. We have a way of trying the same old bullshit (our ego) at stressful situations, hoping that we'll eventually power through them. When the wall doesn't fall because our ego does fuck all for us, we become very much stressed and we turn to our inferior (that is, the parts of ourselves that we don't tend to 'know') as a last resort. (Over time, we learn to integrate these 'tactics' naturally into our psyche so that they're.. you know, not immature or so scary to us. That's a good thing.)

    When any of us is stressed, we're pissed off or fearful--which are negative feelings. This does not mean that a Tx-dom taps into Fx in times of stress which in turn causes them to feel; rather, the feeling is due to the stress.

    Shit, half of empathy, sympathy, and self-awareness is all about identifying the source of emotions anyway.

    My guess on the descriptions is that they simply make the same 'conflation' mistake.

    I do tend to shy away from trying to explain all of this via our JCF models, as it's fitting a round peg into an ellipsoid hole--but there it is. It's a challenge at least

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