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  1. #31
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've really appreciated everyones' responses so far.

    @Saturned commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.
    Yea I think this IS really great! Also I think there's these guys that run intuitvetime.com that say that too. Although that site is not up yet, their youtube videos are...and I find them awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    All right, I'll try to play along with strict mbti theory.

    I'm...not sure.

    I think because I don't view Se in a negative light. If anything I see a lot of good out of it and think it [or, think activities/pasttimes/mentalities I ascribe to it, right or wrong] has a lot of positives and adds necessary balance, perspective, and sanity to myself/my life. Perhaps it's a different experience to have an extroverted perceiving function as your inferior? For me I feel more liberated with it than restricted/stifled. And, to tie into Ni discussions, Se seems to be a pretty essential component of self/ideas/how Ni works, so maybe I should just scrap the 'conscious' reference of it altogether, lol.

    But consciously, the closest I can come with viewing it in a more negative light would be the push/pull tendency.... finding that balance between IxxJ desire for closure, definition, deliberation, etc. vs. integrating the more spontaneous, undefined, and raw/'now'/observational element of Se. It's a tougher balance to maintain but I always try to integrate the 'letting go'/'embrace the moment' element of Se into my life. So balance challenge is because I don't think any extreme is the way to go; so I don't really ever see value in being fully in the moment (permanently/as a lifestyle) or fully not-in-the-moment (permanently).

    I probably would have answered this differently 10 or 15 years ago, though. (not trying to say I'm totally awesome/integrated, I'm just explaining where I'm at and that I don't really view Se as negative or debilitating. I guess, though, that earlier on in life, I *could*/would have said that the 'letting go' thing was much harder / very uncomfortable for me, so there's that)
    I have noticed this too. My friend is an ISFJ and he's pretty mature. I think that with a perception function that's extraverted like Se or Ne...it's not as scary/negative as others. Having Ni and Si last in order sounds scary...but of course with maturity everything becomes easier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Theoretically it's supposed to be more an ENFJ thing, and I'm inclined to think the INFJs who get that way lean in that direction (towards being on the cusp of E) because Ni makes it difficult to cling so confidently to a first impression. And I suspect that people who identify as INTJs and who have the Te version going on (unconscious Fi) lean towards ENTJ. Dunno. I mean I wrote “NFJ” and “NTJ” in my original post because something similar seems to surface in IxxJs too, but I can’t help but think when people complain about INFJs being this way- they’re actually dealing with something closer to an especially introverted ENFJ. I think that the more ‘I’ someone falls on the spectrum (as opposed to ‘E’), the less likely they are to mistake their own judgment for the almighty truth, and they just withdraw and get distrustful and reluctant and squirrelly instead (kind of like: “I don’t know what the truth is, but I know it isn’t what you’re telling me it is”).

    I’m really not sure what influence ‘inferior Se’ has exactly, I don’t have much of a handle on that.


    eta: I'm use "NTJ" and "NFJ" instead of just "TJ" and "FJ" only because when breaking it down further to describe the introverted counterparts, I'm kinda at a loss about ISJs. But I suspect 'inferior Fi' and 'inferior Ti' are similar regardless of S or N.

    I actually was only thinking of this one really unhealthy INFJ that I know. I don't really see that in most INFJ's...I love infjs because of that actually lol.That's why I was surprised that you said that. I have not even seen that in some unhealthy ENFJ's though...I think it was just that one girl...

    So Yes I see what you mean now.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  2. #32
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    This blew my mind a little when I first read it a couple of days ago, so I thought I'd let it breathe for a minute before I responded to your post.

    The way you've explained it here gave me my first really visceral understanding of how fundamentally different the orientation of the inferior is. I guess I'd been playing just the tip with this thing, and now I feel like I'm back at square one lol.

    There was a lot that was said here that was important, but the bolded was in particular. I think until now I'd sought information from more adept Fi users and only grasped the effects rather than understanding the underlying logic...

    Wait. Oh god. I was Te-ing my way to Fi.

    Excuse me, Mr. Kettle, while I go roll around in this big puddle of irony over here.
    Hmmm. Now I see what happens when people are confronted with my kind of posting. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOURE SAYING, Wind-Ni Rex! That Te-ing your way to Fi is... a bad thing?

    I postulate it is suitable, even necessary, to Te a path to Fi, but it works more or less by mapping everything that isn't (your) Fi. Why that can work as a tool for discovery of your own Fi is when you map everything that isn't your Fi, you'll end up seeing anomalies, like when person X burst into tears or person Y mysteriously invoked Rosebud on their deathbed. Why did they do this? You don't know. You might be able to draw lies back through their histories if you had the time and a suitably intrusive sense of purpose, but what you'll end up with is a discovery that there's a space inside people where... something... happens. If you know what that space isn't for yourself, you can set to clearing away all those parts that aren't it and spend a little time with whatever is left.

    So, I guess it's not really Te-ing Fi. It's more like becoming appropriately conscious of what Te is so that then you can ride up to the boundary and know it to be the boundary. And then step through to the other side.

    :horor:


    I may be making things up.

    Still, I *think* it's how I recognise and go about trying more Se. There's something I can do that isn't judging, and isn't conceiving, but is perceiving... must be Se... and now that i know what it is, what do I want to do next.... do I want to do anything next? That sort of thing. Maybe
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #33
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    @Wind-Up Rex

    I fully submerged myself. I fell and I made myself stay there... Don't do that.

    Just realize you aren't actually integrating it into your psyche. You are just realizing and understanding that a deeper force may be guiding your ego. Your ego is never acting alone. You never want efficiency without feeling like what you are choosing to focus on is the most important. Instead of thinking that may be Ni, step back and see if it is Fi.

    It is always there, it is always watching.

  4. #34
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    re: Teing your way to Fi.

    well, what holds the different functions together into a coherent, unified awareness? and do we have control over that? and is that our attention, and do we have control over our attention, or is that just another layer of attention? and what constitutes that?

    i don't know how to answer this, just that the idea is that you relate the functions to each other rather than controlling them from some absolute point. in terms of the moment of awareness within you, you are the focus, the experiential field, and you are the circulations that perceive how to predict what aspects of that experiential field means according to various pathways that get tripped based on the history of our culturally embodied guess systems. you are both p and j, respectively, one just holds on to more resources than they other, just gets more of the spotlight of attention (gets to send more informational depth, more sophisticated communication, to the higher ups). you are habituated to identify with aspects of the huge distributed process of cognition and to ignore others. your attention is principally what mediates this for you, selecting the most relevant information for your frontal cortex/adult intelligence.

    more usefully, i think trusting the massive overcoding of the mind-body system and just picking a point to work on is tremendously useful. i can work on Se, i can work on presence, i can work on e7 (and c2) appreciation of experience to make it more positive and improve my mood/momentum to then promote greater belief/motivation for action (e8 and c3), i can work on chakra 1, 2, and 3, i can work on visualization practices from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person perspectives to improve my spatial awareness/truly grasp where things are coming from/subjective relativity, i can work on my sense of story telling to improve how i define the current situation and organize diachronic/linear time, i can work on bodily practices to ground me and counteract too much head energy, i can work on emotional practices to link my head center and body centers and work on the fair, compassionate negotiation of healthy boundaries not just relational to others but for myself, parameters and rules of designed to help focus my acceptance system, i can work on rituals/practices to organize myself in time to counteract the overly circular Ni system that might as well be a time travel machine because its temporal coherency is never defined by the consistently threaded changes from the environment.

    as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.

  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My Se can feel grounding when I use it, and I had a strong inclination towards ballet or gymnastics when young, but didn't have the opportunity to develop it -especially the ballet. I can end up being unusually flexible with the concrete world because I don't think I have much of it internalized. I have a hard time knowing what I want to eat, watch, favorite music, etc. I don't feel much control over the concrete world, and so I can feel panicked if cut off from a temporal need (although this could have other causes). I can be in the moment when eating the best food or other hedonistic endeavors, but can't always identify preferences ahead of time. I have an unusually hard time verbalizing preferences about my senses.
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  6. #36
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    re: Teing your way to Fi.

    well, what holds the different functions together into a coherent, unified awareness? and do we have control over that? and is that our attention, and do we have control over our attention, or is that just another layer of attention? and what constitutes that?

    i don't know how to answer this, just that the idea is that you relate the functions to each other rather than controlling them from some absolute point. in terms of the moment of awareness within you, you are the focus, the experiential field, and you are the circulations that perceive how to predict what aspects of that experiential field means according to various pathways that get tripped based on the history of our culturally embodied guess systems. you are both p and j, respectively, one just holds on to more resources than they other, just gets more of the spotlight of attention (gets to send more informational depth, more sophisticated communication, to the higher ups). you are habituated to identify with aspects of the huge distributed process of cognition and to ignore others. your attention is principally what mediates this for you, selecting the most relevant information for your frontal cortex/adult intelligence.

    more usefully, i think trusting the massive overcoding of the mind-body system and just picking a point to work on is tremendously useful. i can work on Se, i can work on presence, i can work on e7 (and c2) appreciation of experience to make it more positive and improve my mood/momentum to then promote greater belief/motivation for action (e8 and c3), i can work on chakra 1, 2, and 3, i can work on visualization practices from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person perspectives to improve my spatial awareness/truly grasp where things are coming from/subjective relativity, i can work on my sense of story telling to improve how i define the current situation and organize diachronic/linear time, i can work on bodily practices to ground me and counteract too much head energy, i can work on emotional practices to link my head center and body centers and work on the fair, compassionate negotiation of healthy boundaries not just relational to others but for myself, parameters and rules of designed to help focus my acceptance system, i can work on rituals/practices to organize myself in time to counteract the overly circular Ni system that might as well be a time travel machine because its temporal coherency is never defined by the consistently threaded changes from the environment.

    as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.
    This is interesting. I like what you have to say.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  7. #37
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I actually was only thinking of this one really unhealthy INFJ that I know. I don't really see that in most INFJ's...I love infjs because of that actually lol.That's why I was surprised that you said that. I have not even seen that in some unhealthy ENFJ's though...I think it was just that one girl...

    So Yes I see what you mean now.

    Honestly, I’m probably coming across as saying all this more confidently than I intend when it’s more like I’m thinking aloud. And I don’t completely remember what was going through my mind in making that second post ( ). I think for some reason I was thinking about the times I’ve dealt with it in others and it seemed particularly strong or where someone is particularly reactive about it; in such cases I tend to think they lean towards ENFJ because there’s a certain degree of being comfortable with imposing their immediate judgment on those in the external world around them. I tend to think this about NTJs too- when someone demonstrates an ease with their own reactivity and the imposition it puts on others, I lean towards suspecting they’re actually more E than I. But it’s entirely possible I’m off about this. I’ve known ENFJs who are nothing like this too- they’re perfectly rational and don’t leap to conclusions, and I think this is the case more often than not. Anyway, yeah, I think in INFJs it’s more like a horrible uncertainty- picking up on cues that another person’s actions or words mean *something bad* but having no idea if it’s founded or not. At least that’s what it seems like to me: that ‘inferior Se’ creates generalized anxiety about the external world.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post

    as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.

    Yoga is, by far and wide, the most effective way I’ve found of getting rid of the generalized anxiety. It’s very grounding and I don’t worry about possibilities as much when I’m yoga-ing regularly.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #38
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    When a person makes an effort to be aware/conscious of this process (conceptualizing its impact), then they can be aware of why they believe what they believe, and it becomes easier to recognize when we are wrong. eta: it seems more fitting to me to say 'develop awareness of' (or 'integrate conscious awareness of') than to say 'develop' or 'integrate'.
    Absolutely, this.
    There is a lot of psychic energy involved in repressing the inferior function and a good deal of ego investment in keeping it from consciousness. The inferior will not be called out of the shadows without a battle. If it's easy for you, you're probably doing it wrong/not really doing what you think you're doing at all.
    Developing an awareness of/ recognising the patterns of inferior function expression allow you to slip out from under its grip (and associated delusions.)
    For example, with NFJs I’ve known- I’ve seen a tendency to jump to conclusions about the meaning of another person’s actions or words. Stories (explanations of ‘why) sort of instantly unzip in our heads for why other people do or say what they say or do- and it takes conscious effort to realize we aren’t actually seeing why *they* said or did it….we’re seeing why *we* would say or do it (iow: what it would mean if we said or did it ourselves).
    Truth.
    My point being, the inferior function is there whether it gets ‘developed’ or not- but making oneself aware of how it informs our judgment opens up possibilities that we wouldn’t otherwise investigate because we’d just impulsively assume the initial impression is correct.
    Yes, and the INTP has the opposite problem. Sometimes it feels like drowning in a sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    @Saturned commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.
    It's frequently called marriage. Symbiotic union with someone whose strengths are your weaknesses is probably the commonest (and least helpful) way of dealing (read not dealing) with the deficiency.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think because I don't view Se in a negative light. If anything I see a lot of good out of it and think it [or, think activities/pasttimes/mentalities I ascribe to it, right or wrong] has a lot of positives and adds necessary balance, perspective, and sanity to myself/my life. Perhaps it's a different experience to have an extroverted perceiving function as your inferior?
    You dont see it in a negative light because you have integrated it. Not coincidentally, you are also not one of those NFJs Z Buck talks about - who jump to incorrect assumptions about others.

    I have stopped seeing Fe in a negative light too, but that doesn't mean I actively "use" it. It simply means I own my own inferior expression of it, instead of projecting it onto others and disparaging them for it. (Although, under stress, this will still be a pattern for me).

    I have seen INTPs fall into the trap of simulating Fe. Of using Ti to puzzle out the logic behind social mores and behave in ways that mirror their background. The so-called "chameleon" effect. This tends to lead to stunted development and a deeply cynical / shallow personality. It is not "developed" Fe, it is a defense against it. Of course, like all defenses they are seldom aware of it.
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  9. #39
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes, and the INTP has the opposite problem. Sometimes it feels like drowning in a sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to.
    Actually, I think INTPs (and any type) are just as susceptible to their own version of tunnel vision- I wouldn’t say it’s an opposite problem so much as the same problem with an opposite kind of tunnel vision. That “sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to” is a sort of tunnel vision unto itself. It may be infuriating to deal with a Je’er who is having a hard time working your Ji input into their cognitive purview, especially if that Je’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the mercy of their own unconscious impulses …..but hot damn if it isn’t just as infuriating for us Js to deal with a Pe’er whose unconscious Pi makes them impulsively cling to every capricious whim, completely resistant to incorporate our Pi input into their cognitive purview. When a Pe’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the direction of their own unconscious impulses- as opposed to being aware of the influence inferior Pi has- they NEED to grab hold of those capricious whims (the less conscious Pi impulses are, the stronger that pull)…..and in Ti’ers, it takes the form of grabbing on to every single tiny immediate argument that comes to mind with no regard for the extent to which they’re only pulling up arguments that suit their immediate purpose (there’s no consistency- it’s all about arguing whatever gets them what they want in that moment).

    In exaggerated cases- just like it’s obvious to other people when Je’ers are clinging to some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge- it’s just as ‘obvious’ to others when Pe’ers are shape-shifting some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge. The difference is that Je clings whole hog to a ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) which was already in place in their cognitive purview, and Pe clings whole hog to a brand new ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) regardless of how much it contradicts the ‘truth’ (which was blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) they were arguing 10 minutes ago. It all comes across as biased pigheadedness, but from different directions.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #40
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    This thread is even more interesting than it was when I left it! Kudos to all the wise and thoughtful people who have posted here.

    Based on what @Salomé said, I'm wondering if the inferior function just bothers T-doms a lot more than it bothers other people.

    Relevant quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Quenk, "Was That Really Me?" (the chapter on ExTJs)
    From a Thinking point of view, the eruption of "illogical," uncontrolled, and disorderly feelings is like being at the mercy of strange and overwhelming forces that threaten a person's equilibrium, if not his or her whole existence... In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy.
    I haven't heard of any other types having that extreme a relationship with their inferior function -- which isn't to say that I won't be easily convinced to the contrary, but the dynamic on this thread suggests that my hypothesis is correct, in addition to @Kalach's posts about Te-dominance being what led to the creation of this thread in the first place.
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