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  1. #11
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One thing I've learned through talking with my NFP friends and comparing myself to them, is that as compartmentalized as Te and Fi can feel to me, oftentimes that's an illusion created by Te's tendency to deny feeling. My Te operates under particular concepts of what "should" and "should not" be done, but if you ask me enough questions about why I do things, i.e. if you dig deep enough, it's all going to be Fi underneath. (I would call that Te-ing my way to Fi.) The hard outside is rational, but the soft inside is as irrational as you can get. In a way, I feel that Fi is the foundation for everything I do, and Te is its guardian, the soldier assigned to protect it.
    This completely applies to me too. Very interesting way of putting it into words.

  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    This completely applies to me too. Very interesting way of putting it into words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    It's funny that I've thought about these things in the past in almost these exact terms, especially the bolded.
    Validation!
    You also really neatly captured the more compartmentalized mindset that I'm ready to move forward from. I'm aiming for a convergence of what had up until now been "private" and "public" selves, and in doing so truly honor who I am and what I'm about.
    And here I was, thinking that I was showing an example of how they integrate into one another. Obviously I should have thought harder before I posted.
    You bring up an interesting point, though, about the veil of objectivity that Te likes to cast. But I have no doubts that the Te and Fi "halves" of myself are equally valid in their respective viewpoints. In fact, as I was saying to Ginkgo in a VM my desire to integrate the Fi half is because it seems so much freer, and lives in a world that's so much richer than that which my Te-guided self will allow for. I just want the meaning and possibility and fullness that this sorta inner reconciliation seems to have the potential to create.
    I think that Z Buck McFate has some really good insight into that, here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It seems to me- as an observer- like what TJs have to gain from pulling Fi ‘out of the shadows’ is realizing the influence Fi has over ‘what seems right/correct’. I’ve noticed some NTJs can actually get very emo in defending their position- wholly believing they’re being ‘objective’, when to anyone witnessing their reaction/behavior, their position seems anything but ‘objective’. They can be unreasonable and impulsively argue their position is right in the face of contrary evidence- it’s like there’s some irrational subjective core holding their position firmly in place which is apparent to everyone but themselves and any/all other positions are ‘offensive’ to them by virtue of simply being different. The less a TJ realizes there’s some irrational core attaching them to ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ (or ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’?), the more they’ll be senselessly and impulsively ‘offended’ by anyone else having a different point of view? [Again- this is just what it looks like to me as an observer of it.]

    My point being, the inferior function is there whether it gets ‘developed’ or not- but making oneself aware of how it informs our judgment opens up possibilities that we wouldn’t otherwise investigate because we’d just impulsively assume the initial impression is correct.
    Her point on how Fi blends with Te was sort of what I was trying to get at in my previous post. Z Buck may be right that they were never really separate in the first place; the only separation was from Te wanting there to be separation. Dominant Te would like to think that Fi just gets in the way of its righteous goals, but how righteous would those goals be without Fi to add moral backing to them?

    In terms of how you could "free" your Fi... This is something that I struggle a little bit with, too. Maybe just recognizing Fi when it shows up, accepting it, and encouraging it. Changing your attitude towards it, learning from the FPs in your life; they have a degree of acceptance of their Fi that I try to emulate, with varying degrees of success.

    In short: you're a softy. Embrace your softy tendencies!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #13
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Hmm. Sort of. For me, Te and Fi represent two very distinct modes of being that are frequently at odds with one another. I feel like my problem is that I spend a lot of time bouncing between these two poles, and am trying to find common ground between them such that there can be at least some harmony between them. The kind of compartmentalized, either/or strategy that I've had up until now is simply not working for me anymore. My Te-side will have put into place structures and stability, and the Fi-side just rebels because it wasn't included from the outset. These little inferior function eruptions have caused problems for me, and are something I'm trying to work on.
    *ahem*

    The decision to work on these things reeks--REEKS!--of Fi. I don't know why this should be true, or even if it truly is, and I don't know how to pinpoint the F elements either. But, a thought...

    I always felt that perceiver dominants had it a bit easier in this area because it's more apparent how Pe feeds into Pi and vice versa. But then I remember that ya'll can identify just as fixedly with your perceptions as we do with our ability to make decisions about them.
    *If* a dominant perceiver's method really is to conceptualize the impact of the inferior, perhaps the dominant thinker's is to stipulate an impact. In the terms of extroverted thinking the stipulation might sound something like, "Yo, so it turns out people make decisions for all sorts of reasons, and some of them subjective, but whether logical or felt, these decisions are part of the environment now!" It'd make sense then as an extroverted thinker to start an investigation. Maybe squeeze some feelers and see what comes out. The idea then is not to mimic them. The stipulation about decisions in the environment applies to your own decisions too. So, adding together what you've seen others do (and asked questions about to learn "the truth") and comparing it with what you know of your own states and events, you might start seeing where you differ and where you're the same, and maybe invent your own metric. Voila, conscious Fi.

    I don't know if this actually works. In theory it's a process of identifying your Fi by identifying your place in the environment under the stipulation that some parts of the environment are generated from inside individuals. Sounds a bit self help-y, I guess. Still, it's potentially less disgusting than just having feelings.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One thing I've learned through talking with my NFP friends and comparing myself to them, is that as compartmentalized as Te and Fi can feel to me, oftentimes that's an illusion created by Te's tendency to deny feeling. My Te operates under particular concepts of what "should" and "should not" be done, but if you ask me enough questions about why I do things, i.e. if you dig deep enough, it's all going to be Fi underneath. (I would call that Te-ing my way to Fi.) The hard outside is rational, but the soft inside is as irrational as you can get. In a way, I feel that Fi is the foundation for everything I do, and Te is its guardian, the soldier assigned to protect it.
    I like that and would say my Ti is used ALOT to defend my Fe and that I am heavily driven by Fe. But my Fe is alot more focused then a Dominant Fe would be, I am not all "everyone" based, my Fe is very personalized. Much more focused on a very small group then a huge crowd. To the world I look like one person, but to one person I look like the world Again, that previous sentence was probably my Ti in support of Inferior Fe.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've been focusing on working with some of my issues with inferior Fi as of late. I am curious how others have gone about integrating their inferior function, and what degree of success they might have had. A couple of questions:

    How does your inferior function manifest itself? What personal issues do you relate to it, and what have you done to better integrate your use and expression of this function? How successful have you been?

    Ok, after talking to you ad infinitum about this subject... I have discovered that I am afraid of my inferior function of Te. I hate the idea of influencing anything. I am not sure if this is because it's my inferior or being @Zang identified me as a "delta" in his system. (Maybe my dear AUM @Chawie can give some much needed insight into this thread. :tea: ) Delta meaning that I simply walk around the landscape of life without affecting anything. And those pesky Je-functions are sort of the opposite of this.

    It works best when I have an identified goal and I look at how best to achieve this goal. I mainly have to use this at work when I have to create protocol systems for my employees and I tend to get rather irritated when they deviate from this pattern.

    It's definitely something I need help with, however, as it doesn't come naturally to me.

    Most of the time I feel like I am doing brain surgery wearing mittens and rollarskates. Oh, and I'm drunk.

    The End.

  6. #16
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One thing I've learned through talking with my NFP friends and comparing myself to them, is that as compartmentalized as Te and Fi can feel to me, oftentimes that's an illusion created by Te's tendency to deny feeling. My Te operates under particular concepts of what "should" and "should not" be done, but if you ask me enough questions about why I do things, i.e. if you dig deep enough, it's all going to be Fi underneath. (I would call that Te-ing my way to Fi.) The hard outside is rational, but the soft inside is as irrational as you can get. In a way, I feel that Fi is the foundation for everything I do, and Te is its guardian, the soldier assigned to protect it.
    This! I very much feel like the bolded.

    I have wondered about this. I got into some very intense discussions with my ESTJ and it dawned upon me that he was doing what you described above. I've known him for a very long time but it is just recently that he has been very open and expressing the motivations behind his actions. It's pretty incredible to see.

  7. #17
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    This! I very much feel like this.
    Your Ti guards your Fe?
    Would you elaborate on this for me? I'm curious as to how that works for you in practice.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #18
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One thing I've learned through talking with my NFP friends and comparing myself to them, is that as compartmentalized as Te and Fi can feel to me, oftentimes that's an illusion created by Te's tendency to deny feeling. My Te operates under particular concepts of what "should" and "should not" be done, but if you ask me enough questions about why I do things, i.e. if you dig deep enough, it's all going to be Fi underneath. (I would call that Te-ing my way to Fi.) The hard outside is rational, but the soft inside is as irrational as you can get. In a way, I feel that Fi is the foundation for everything I do, and Te is its guardian, the soldier assigned to protect it.
    Because your wonderful post hasn't been quoted enough, I am jumping on the "praise EJCC" bandwagon.

    I relate to this a lot.

  9. #19
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Your Ti guards your Fe?
    Would you elaborate on this for me? I'm curious as to how that works for you in practice.
    I don't know. I only know I can identify with what you said. I'm old and typing is a mess for me. INTP? Maybe.

    I'm not sure if I can explain it well. It wasn't until recently that I realized how much of what I did was fueled by certain beliefs (a kindly INFP pointed this out to me) or internal rules that I have gathered over the years. Family deaths, divorce, and being at odds with others brought out a lot of...aggressiveness in me. It put me in a positions where instead of cruising, I've had to fight for what I believe in.

    (I know @Saturned is going to see this!)

    I don't know if this is making any sense! I shouldn't be on here when I'm trying to study blood dyscrasias.

  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Delta meaning that I simply walk around the landscape of life without affecting anything. And those pesky Je-functions are sort of the opposite of this.
    There's a reason why the redneck Te motto is "Git R Done"!
    It works best when I have an identified goal and I look at how best to achieve this goal. I mainly have to use this at work when I have to create protocol systems for my employees and I tend to get rather irritated when they deviate from this pattern.

    It's definitely something I need help with, however, as it doesn't come naturally to me.
    @ the bolded, that's because Te-doms use their Te that way. IME, skillful Te use requires goals, or else the function can't really be used constructively. That's how I can tell angry NFPs from angry STJs; the STJs are usually ranting with a goal in mind, or ranting about a goal, whereas the NFPs seem to just be trying to vent it and get it out of their system.

    So I guess integrated use of inferior Te would mean taking deep breaths when you're upset and Making A Plan. (Hence my Visitor Message about "well-aimed volcanoes". )
    Most of the time I feel like I am doing brain surgery wearing mittens and rollarskates. Oh, and I'm drunk.
    ^That's how I feel about Fi. Probably an inferior function thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Because your wonderful post hasn't been quoted enough, I am jumping on the "praise EJCC" bandwagon.

    I relate to this a lot.
    Aw, shucks! Thanks, friend!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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