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  1. #1
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    Default Why SJ types are not as common as many think

    I began questioning the commonality of SJ types, especially ISTJ and ISFJ, very early on in my study of type theory (I do still contend that ESTJ and ESFJ are somewhat common, though I think they are fewer in number compared to some E__P types, especially ENTP and ESFP).

    Let's consider the basic contentions of S and J: they are regulated, controlled, decisive, respectful of tradition, aware of their environment, aware of common sense, and aware of their appearance.

    Now, let's consider what we see at the average school and the average mall and the average Walmart as we keep in mind Voltaire's brilliant paraphrased quote, "Common sense is not that common."

    Most of the teenagers I teach, most of the people I see at the mall, and most of the people I see at the average Walmart, are like this:

    * fat
    * loud
    * spontaneous
    * argumentative
    * don't give too much of a crap about school or following the rules
    * wear in-your-face t-shirts that reflect their favorite popular culture icons
    * don't seem to notice how disheveled and goofy they look
    * can't follow rules that well
    * hate reflecting or writing about much of anything
    * see global truths, but not any introverted or detailed depth
    * daydream and spazz out constantly
    * don't notice much of anything about their environment
    * have an indifferent or hostile attitude toward tradition
    * can't sit still to save their lives

    I mean, seriously? Are we so wrapped up in our imaginative heads that we don't notice these things when we should? Now that I have stopped trying to daydream as much as possible wherever I go, reality has finally reached me. SJs are NOT everywhere. Common sense is NOT common - Voltaire was right. Most kids are NOT proficient in Si. Most kids do NOT respect authority very much, and neither do adults, though maturity helps this to an extent (types balance more as they get older).

    I think ENTP and ESFP are the most common types in our nation right now. We want our freedom, we want our fun, we want our excitement, we want our instant gratification, and we want escape from reality - few people NATURALLY want to maintain boring tradition, become accountants, clean their homes, or follow and plod over every detail in school (or even at work!) unless FORCED by their job requirements.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Ive often pondered this myself.

    Of course...you have taken a big risk here since you dont state any statistical evidence for such a claim. Most wont look beyond that.

    But this would ignore the observation that the original 'statistics taken from Gifts Differing, (which place the numerical population of SJ types at the top percentage), are themselves little more than the appropriation of what Katharine Mary-Briggs and Isabel Briggs-Myers assumed to be true.

    Ive also realised that SJ types, (well most types really), are very malleable to their environment, especially the one they grew up in. So much so that an SJ now will appear far different than one from the 1950's.

    In any case I too have noticed the same traits you have. Ive often wondered really...just how you can tell a stupid Intuitive from a stupid Sensor? Afterall that, to me, is the biggest definer between individuals....intelligence. Although not as an indication for type.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #3
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I think some of the terms could be misleading. For instance, swap "common sense" with "peer consensus", and "tradition" with "culture". My understanding is that these are interchangeable for SJs. Likewise the "authorities" for teenagers probably aren't their teachers or parents in this day and age. Culturally teenagers are taught that teachers and parents are largely untrustworthy and/or irrelevant, in the West at least. So their authority figures are unlikely to be the traditional ones.

    Add in generation Y tendencies and do you still think SJs aren't that common?

  4. #4
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Now, let's consider what we see at the average school and the average mall and the average Walmart as we keep in mind Voltaire's brilliant paraphrased quote, "Common sense is not that common."

    Most of the teenagers I teach, most of the people I see at the mall, and most of the people I see at the average Walmart, are like this:
    Have you considered that your sample locations are biased? Highschool and Walmart? Really?

    When I was in Highschool, I wore Hot Topic clothes and dyed my hair black. No joke. Most people are intensely different as adults than as they were when they were teenagers. I was a good student in Highschool, valedictorian and all that... But I was fucking weird as shit and moody as shit. Teenagers are hormonal and crazy, and their personalities are still rapidly changing and developing.

    How about we go the other direction and use a prestigious college campus as the sample location? I'd typically see physically fit, academically driven people. Sure you get the occasional student running to class in their pajamas, but the majority are well-dressed. And frankly, the average college class' focus on memorization and standardized testing is an SJ dream.

    And Walmart? Forgive my lack of political correctness, but as store choices go... You may have picked the most blatantly trailer-trash of any chain. Let's do another 180 and go to Saks Fifth Avenue. Walk in there and tell me that you're bulleted list applies to ANY of them. I'm not suggesting that they're all SJs... Just that your bulleted list may have some sort of correlation to your choice of location.

    TLDR; Biased sample. Your argument is invalid.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  5. #5
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post

    TLDR; Biased sample. Your argument is invalid.
    True, but that can easily be turned right around onto the MBTI statistics that claim they are a majority. All anyone can be sure of is that a lot of people assumed a lot of things about another lot of people.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #6
    your resident asshole
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    I think you're assuming too much about people. Not all SJ's are well-adjusted. I agree with the statement that "common sense is not that common," but being an SJ has nothing to do with common sense.

    Let me pick out a few traits that I feel are not related to whether or not someone might be an SJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * fat
    * loud
    * argumentative
    * don't give too much of a crap about school or following the rules
    * wear in-your-face t-shirts that reflect their favorite popular culture icons
    * don't seem to notice how disheveled and goofy they look
    * can't follow rules that well
    * hate reflecting or writing about much of anything
    * see global truths, but not any introverted or detailed depth
    * daydream and spazz out constantly
    * don't notice much of anything about their environment
    * can't sit still to save their lives
    As you can see, I only removed a few sentences. The rest I feel do not relate to anything other than people being annoying slobs. While it's nice that you think of all SJ's being well-adjusted human beings, this is not necessarily the case. Also, Walmart is not the best of places to look for people with common sense.

    Most kids do NOT respect authority very much, and neither do adults, though maturity helps this to an extent (types balance more as they get older).
    What does Si have to do with respecting authority?

  7. #7
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    Just because someone is SJ deosn't mean thay can't be an independent thinker and similarly just because someone is SP doesn't mean that they are incapable of envisioning a profound metamorphosis for the future. I think these stereotypes were made by ignorant and retarded wannabe intuitive pigs.

  8. #8
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    Good discussion, all. I was prepared for this to become something of a flame-fest, but glad to see opinions being shared in a neutral tone.

  9. #9
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    I honestly after reading your posts think that your biases as a high school teacher are really shining through, and this definitely comes across as an; “I hate teenagers, they’re nothing like me and I have to rationalise it argument.” But I’ll endeavour to dissect anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    Let's consider the basic contentions of S and J: they are regulated
    No food is regulated, products, exports, imports are regulated. People are not regulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    , controlled, decisive,
    controlled I will give you in mature SJ adults, not in teenagers. Decisive not necessarily, you don’t have to go far to find anecdotes of SFJs who don’t act out of fear of hurting someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    respectful of tradition,
    Far to lose a definition; respectful of their traditions, not necessarily everyones.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    aware of their environment,
    presumptive argument, it implies you understand what they are thinking at all times, maybe they notice and don’t care.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    aware of common sense,
    I’m not going to step on this landmine
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    and aware of their appearance.
    Considering how teenagers are well known for trying to keep up with fashion trends im confused by this one….

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    Now, let's consider what we see at the average school and the average mall and the average Walmart as we keep in mind Voltaire's brilliant paraphrased quote, "Common sense is not that common."
    I positively adore the fact that you used Voltaire, an ENTP in the same argument as you call them; fat, loud, belligerent, shallow ignoramuses. Candide is a fantastic example of what an angry ENTP’s mind looks like.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    Most of the teenagers I teach, most of the people I see at the mall, and most of the people I see at the average Walmart, are like this:
    the next part I’m going to refute as an ENTP, I would defend the ESFP’s as well but I know little theoretically about them as I use typology for more self-absorbed purposes, and could possibly impose crass stereotypes on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * fat
    not indicative of type, and the usual descriptions of ENTP’s runs along the lines of tall, thin, disproportionate body lengths and awkward looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * loud
    Indicative of immature extrovert, or insecure introvert
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * spontaneous
    Applies to all Perceivers
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * argumentative
    You have been around this site have you not? Very few ENTP’s and they still manage to have such earth shattering arguments such as what’s my type? When there is miscommunication, there will be argument. as any forum on the web can attest to.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * don't give too much of a crap about school or following the rules
    You are American are you not? Because I’m fairly sure that ever since the revolution you guys haven’t given two hoots about rules and regulations. Always freedom, individuality and all that, this seems quite cultural.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * wear in-your-face t-shirts that reflect their favorite popular culture icons
    Indicative of Fe, the whole everyone is doing this therefore I should do this to be cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * don't seem to notice how disheveled and goofy they look
    This is just plain prejudiced this is how they look to you. If anything this is a comment on an older SJ looking at younger SJs and being confused by them, a generational divide.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * can't follow rules that well
    Repeat
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * hate reflecting or writing about much of anything
    Because teenagers of other generations are well known for their reflection and writing ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * see global truths, but not any introverted or detailed depth
    This is really just a fancy way of saying they watch the news media. As for global truths that implies that the world agrees on something, which as far as I know has never actually happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * daydream and spazz out constantly
    Prejudice again, this sound more like you are having problems connection with the children in your class. To define an entire generation as such is ludicrous
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * don't notice much of anything about their environment
    This is simply being human, we don’t notice because we don’t care. And it doesn’t mean there ENTP’s, it means you care and they don’t so you notice it.
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * have an indifferent or hostile attitude toward tradition
    You are going to have to be more specific than that, but my guess is your talking about Political Correctness, as in say not caring about Thanksgiving because you spent far more time killing and persecuting them, them having parties?
    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    * can't sit still to save their lives
    Teenagers are one giant chemical plant, if you had to go through it again I doubt that you would be sitting still either.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    I mean, seriously? Are we so wrapped up in our imaginative heads that we don't notice these things when we should? Now that I have stopped trying to daydream as much as possible wherever I go, reality has finally reached me. SJs are NOT everywhere. Common sense is NOT common - Voltaire was right. Most kids are NOT proficient in Si. Most kids do NOT respect authority very much, and neither do adults, though maturity helps this to an extent (types balance more as they get older).
    Again this is really just a cultural thing. Americans as far as I can tell have always been suspicious of people in authority, the rights of the individual has always preceded that of the collective, now is the format and expression changing? Probably but the message and the attitude is the same it has always been.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    I think ENTP and ESFP are the most common types in our nation right now. We want our freedom, we want our fun, we want our excitement, we want our instant gratification, and we want escape from reality - few people NATURALLY want to maintain boring tradition, become accountants, clean their homes, or follow and plod over every detail in school (or even at work!) unless FORCED by their job requirements.
    This isn’t even a comment on typology anymore, it’s a rant on the sociological and psychological make up on the current and future makeup of the USA, you seem a little confused, and I’m beginning to think this has more to do with blowing off steam.

  10. #10
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    I began questioning the commonality of SJ types, especially ISTJ and ISFJ, very early on in my study of type theory (I do still contend that ESTJ and ESFJ are somewhat common, though I think they are fewer in number compared to some E__P types, especially ENTP and ESFP).

    Let's consider the basic contentions of S and J: they are regulated, controlled, decisive, respectful of tradition, aware of their environment, aware of common sense, and aware of their appearance.

    Now, let's consider what we see at the average school and the average mall and the average Walmart as we keep in mind Voltaire's brilliant paraphrased quote, "Common sense is not that common."

    Most of the teenagers I teach, most of the people I see at the mall, and most of the people I see at the average Walmart, are like this:

    * fat
    * loud
    * spontaneous
    * argumentative
    * don't give too much of a crap about school or following the rules
    * wear in-your-face t-shirts that reflect their favorite popular culture icons
    * don't seem to notice how disheveled and goofy they look
    * can't follow rules that well
    * hate reflecting or writing about much of anything
    * see global truths, but not any introverted or detailed depth
    * daydream and spazz out constantly
    * don't notice much of anything about their environment
    * have an indifferent or hostile attitude toward tradition
    * can't sit still to save their lives

    I mean, seriously? Are we so wrapped up in our imaginative heads that we don't notice these things when we should? Now that I have stopped trying to daydream as much as possible wherever I go, reality has finally reached me. SJs are NOT everywhere. Common sense is NOT common - Voltaire was right. Most kids are NOT proficient in Si. Most kids do NOT respect authority very much, and neither do adults, though maturity helps this to an extent (types balance more as they get older).

    I think ENTP and ESFP are the most common types in our nation right now. We want our freedom, we want our fun, we want our excitement, we want our instant gratification, and we want escape from reality - few people NATURALLY want to maintain boring tradition, become accountants, clean their homes, or follow and plod over every detail in school (or even at work!) unless FORCED by their job requirements.

    Thoughts?
    Most "statistics" claim that SJs are about 1/3 of our population. One out of every three is not an overwhelmingly lot...they are still evenly matched with SPs, and together NTs and NFs are about as numerous as the SJs. So, without even changing the evidence, re-examining context helps.

    I think it's not hard to imagine that about 1/3 of students, balanced with peer pressure, tend to stay away from crazy situations and often focus on their work, especially quiet ones who don't verbally express this. Meanwhile, the other 2/3 (a majority of students) are doing something else.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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