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  1. #11
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    The post applies to adults as well, not just teenagers. The majority of the adults at the mall and Walmart act this way, too. I also see the tendencies at the gym, although obviously there are more fit people who can be found at those places as well.

  2. #12
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    Cimarron, I have seen those statistics, but I simply don't believe them. What people test as is not necessarily their true type - as a self-testing instrument, there is an inherent subjective bias in MBTI testing. I buy into Niednagel's and Socionics' contention that ENTP is the most common type by far (Niednagel also believes ESFP is quite common). I do not know many people at all who fit the SJ descriptions well - they may like to test out that way because their jobs force them to use those functions more than they naturally would.

  3. #13
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    I'm kind of new to this, but I look at SJ differently than it seems you all are. The way I have seen it play out it in several close people is less of a general "steady and responsible" tone, but more a religous adherance to "the right way." I find it exasperating.

    "The right way", rule based living, if you will, is dependent upon upbringing. Those kids at Walmart who are acting just like their parents may very well be SJ. Why? Because they are acting the way they have been shown to act. The rule is when you are at the store with your friends, you buy a coke and sit on the bench in the front throwing rocks at tires. It's just what you do.

    It isn't like SJ's suddenly have a higher moral calling. The few I know have a hard time deviating from what they know to be true. Whether or not it actually IS true is irrelevant.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsayin View Post
    I'm kind of new to this, but I look at SJ differently than it seems you all are. The way I have seen it play out it in several close people is less of a general "steady and responsible" tone, but more a religous adherance to "the right way." I find it exasperating.

    "The right way", rule based living, if you will, is dependent upon upbringing. Those kids at Walmart who are acting just like their parents may very well be SJ. Why? Because they are acting the way they have been shown to act. The rule is when you are at the store with your friends, you buy a coke and sit on the bench in the front throwing rocks at tires. It's just what you do.

    It isn't like SJ's suddenly have a higher moral calling. The few I know have a hard time deviating from what they know to be true. Whether or not it actually IS true is irrelevant.
    I'm a bit confused. Not all SJ's are going to agree with their parents or even the rest of society. It sounds like you are talking down to SJ's.

  5. #15
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I went to a "Business High School" focussed on economics, finance, accounting etc. and I saw none of what you describe. Most people spent their afternoons doing boring accounting homework and hoped to find a job in a small-medium sized enterprise.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I went to a "Business High School" focussed on economics, finance, accounting etc. and I saw none of what you describe. Most people spent their afternoons doing boring accounting homework and hoped to find a job in a small-medium sized enterprise.
    Where is this and how does it work? I'm just curious because I've never heard of anything like that.

    However, I think it's safe to assume that most high schools are not going to have people as serious as those in the one you went to.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    I'm a bit confused. Not all SJ's are going to agree with their parents or even the rest of society. It sounds like you are talking down to SJ's.
    I thought that was what you were supposed to do. Afterall SJ's dont even have the freedoms of SP's. They are at the bottom of the barrel.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
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    No, not talking down at all. Just bad phrasing on my part. I know, I did use the word exasperated, but that is just because I am dealing with a certain one who really wears me out. It isn't indicitive of all sjs, so, sorry.

    I was just trying to say that I have found sj to mean rule following. Not the rules of society, but their understanding of the way things should be. The way the kids are acting isn't a reflection of their mbti status, it is only a testiment to the effects of environment.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmacoma View Post
    Cimarron, I have seen those statistics, but I simply don't believe them. What people test as is not necessarily their true type - as a self-testing instrument, there is an inherent subjective bias in MBTI testing. I buy into Niednagel's and Socionics' contention that ENTP is the most common type by far (Niednagel also believes ESFP is quite common).
    Ok, fair enough, although this is a pretty involved argument into whether types are distinct enough to measure.

    I do not know many people at all who fit the SJ descriptions well - they may like to test out that way because their jobs force them to use those functions more than they naturally would.
    Yet you believe your own subjective interpretation, derived from another system? There is a mountain of support for MBTI testing; what are you using to offset that?

    Anyway, even so, there is simply no way that ENTP is the most common "type" so long as you accept the categorization methods (in the case of Step II, factor analysis) of MBTI; if you disagree with the categorization, you can't use MBTI ENTP as a placeholder for that category. (ENTP, as independent categories, are the least common. E<I, N<S, T<F, P<J).*

    * Edit: To be clear, I do not mean that ENTPs are the least common. I meant in terms of categorization silos only, there are correlations between these silos.

  10. #20
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    I don't trust any data too much. It would be near impossible to get clean data that would accurately represent the entire US or the world as a whole.

    For example, it's believed that the S/N disparity is greater in rural areas than in cities. It's also pretty clear that certain areas will naturaly attract different types.

    How do you find a group that's not skewed? How do you set the conditions so that all types would be equally likely to participate? How are these people being typed, and what's the margin of error (20% for MBTI)?

    Also, when it comes to our perceptions and observations, they're all all skewed to our own biases and to the particular environment we're in. It's really interesting to me how differently people see 'the world' and the 'way things are' when I'm in LA as opposed to when I'm in rural Georgia.

    We all project. None of us are unbiased and few of us have any idea just how biased we are.

    We project things from our unconscious in ways that we can label them in other people and condemn them. The more we do that and the more emotion we put into it the more we miss that's right in front of us. If you don't think you're missing things then see if you can count the passes in this video...



    So are there more SP and less SJs than is widely assumed? I don't know, but I think the way you presented the question brings up some other things that are more important.

    From my perspective, all types are equally necessary in society and all are equally valid as human beings. If you find that you're condemning people based on type (I've certainly been guilt of this), then you're projecting and over-valuing your own strengths while under valuing theirs and you're probably missing some important things that are right in front of you.

    I have regular interaction with a number of different profilers who are really good. Only one of them doesn't have a particular blind spot that I can identify. The one who doesn't is the one who has the most perspective and the greatest appreciation for people of each type. I don't think that's a coincidence.

    So if you're condemning people based on type, you're not seeing what's really going on. I think that's a good guideline that I try to remember.

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