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  1. #21
    Junior Member Apostolos's Avatar
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    I believe that my grandmothers are ESTJ and ESFP. I find both annoying but I prefer the second one. The ESTJ(?) one is smarter and honest, the ESFP(?) one is caring and fun. My grandfather who is married to the ESTJ grandmother is, I think, INTP. I get along with him very well.

  2. #22
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    For the record - and I'm not positive about any of these - my dad is IxFJ, and my mom and brother are both IxTJ. I can't figure out the N/S splits.

    I'm 99% sure we're all IxxJs.
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  3. #23
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    the general stereotypes are that females are feelers and that males are thinkers, because statistically it would be "usually close enough", both because for the majority (but in no way overwhelming majority) it would be true, and because - as a result - the gender expectations have followed that majority trends, so when it isn't true, people will still be enacting a sense of identity defined by those expectations, making the assessment close enough for casual acquaintance.
    the latter element is more true for women, as the social pressure for men to "appear T" has being somewhat mitigated by the positive media treatment & romanticization of "the sensitive guy" leading to a higher acceptance of F-males, while the T-female identity hasn't been given such an opportunity, often still viewed as "ice queens" or even "bitches" by both males and other females.

    the female-J/male-P element of the stereotype gets a little bit more muddy, but are note worthy for being appearance focused (while in RL most males & females are Js):
    since most people (male or female) are sensors, the value of Se for the masculine role and Si for the feminine role has being repeated throughout history. in hunter gatherer society, where it would have being a necessity for women to be pregnant for a majority of their fertile lives to diffuse the high mortality rate, the roles which demanded the fastest reaction times were left for men, whether hunting or defense, while the roles that demanded a rich basis of experience, such as knowing when various fruits are ripe or what is poisonous or medicinal, were largely female. as people learned from their tribes directly, the work models where the roles children were exposed to.
    the industrial revolution intensified this further: when men went into the workforce where they had clear hierarchies of external discipline, a women's workplace was more often than not the household itself, where while officially subservient, for the majority of the time she had to fulfill the role of being her own boss, encouraging a J behavior. this generated a larger miscommunication throughout generations, where children grow up seen their mothers at their workplace, while only seen their fathers while they were resting from their workplace, thus obtaining role models and expectations accordingly.
    some believe that today we are merely struggling in shaking off the anthropological and recent cultural norms, but i'd call BS, in fact or our modern enlightened society is repeating the pattern more than before as increasingly more people grow up in single-mother households generated by increasing divorce rates (that have become practical due to women's capacity to be financially independent), growing up with a female role model that needs to be the complete boss for herself and her environment in order to maintain the minimal functionality, while the fathers they are exposed too in those situations, if they aren't absent, will often be on the lower-end of the custody through weekends and vacations, meaning that again we are raising (or have being raised as) a generation exposed to males while they are resting and females while they are maintaining.

    these are the main factors, that combined with the fact most people are sensors, generate the STP male stereotype & SFJ female stereotype.

    FYI - my mother is an ENFP & my father an INTJ, so there ya go :-p

  4. #24
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I very much doubt that every xSFJ female relative typed themselves. Remarkable numbers of people aren't interested in MBTI.
    Yes. My mother knew nothing about it, and I only came to understand it after her death. I have vacillated between ESFP and ESFJ for her. She was very outgoing, and fun-loving, which makes me think the former. As I learned about functions, though, I came to realize that her strongest one was Fe. As an obvious extravert, this leaves ENFJ and ESFJ, with S much more suited to how she looked at the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    this generated a larger miscommunication throughout generations, where children grow up seen their mothers at their workplace, while only seen their fathers while they were resting from their workplace, thus obtaining role models and expectations accordingly.
    some believe that today we are merely struggling in shaking off the anthropological and recent cultural norms, but i'd call BS, in fact or our modern enlightened society is repeating the pattern more than before as increasingly more people grow up in single-mother households generated by increasing divorce rates (that have become practical due to women's capacity to be financially independent), growing up with a female role model that needs to be the complete boss for herself and her environment in order to maintain the minimal functionality, while the fathers they are exposed too in those situations, if they aren't absent, will often be on the lower-end of the custody through weekends and vacations, meaning that again we are raising (or have being raised as) a generation exposed to males while they are resting and females while they are maintaining.
    This is an interesting observation. It is certainly true for much of the 20th century, but there are limitations on what it describes. In pre-industrial and agricultural societies, both women and men were essentially their own boss, on the farm or in a shop, each doing their own specific (often gender-based) tasks. Children worked with the corresponding parent to help out and to learn skills. In the modern age, households with two working parents abound in addition to single-mother households. Here, both mom and dad interact with kids outside of work, and the amount of truly recreational time depends on how household duties are divided. Many adults today, however, grew up in just the kind of circumstance you describe.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #25
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes. My mother knew nothing about it, and I only came to understand it after her death. I have vacillated between ESFP and ESFJ for her. She was very outgoing, and fun-loving, which makes me think the former. As I learned about functions, though, I came to realize that her strongest one was Fe. As an obvious extravert, this leaves ENFJ and ESFJ, with S much more suited to how she looked at the world.
    My point though was really that not every woman of a certain age is an Fe-dom or ESFJ. It would probably have been more accurate of me to say that not all "xSFJ" women have typed themselves. My impression is that a great many people are assuming that's what their moms are, based on their own expectations, or on their moms acting a certain way due to social expectations (most people in this forum are American and that probably has something to do with it too). @EJCC also made a good point - just because your grandmother seemed traditional doesn't necessarily mean she was an SJ; most grandmothers are going to seem at least somewhat traditional.

    But I'm starting to think that I'm in a minority as far as thinking that most mothers aren't ESFJs, so I should probably bow out of this thread.
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  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But I'm starting to think that I'm in a minority as far as thinking that most mothers aren't ESFJs, so I should probably bow out of this thread.
    According to the MBTI site capt.org, 40-57% of women are SF. Assuming all types are equally likely to have children, that means there is around a 50% chance that any given person's mother is an SF at least. There are equal amounts of E and I, and slightly more J than P. ISFJ is listed as the most common of the 4 SF types for women. E vs. I is usually easy to tell.

    Bottom line: some people really do have SFJ mothers, and some of us know our mothers well enough to understand where their real person ends and their public persona starts. It is all about what one's basis for making that claim is.
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  7. #27
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    As far as gender stereotypes, I think there are two sets:
    • reserved, strong/silent male + bubbly socialite female
    • devoted and dutifully nurturing female + aggressive dominant male
    The bolded represents my parents. Father, ISTX; mother, XSFJ.
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  8. #28
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    According to the MBTI site capt.org, 40-57% of women are SF. Assuming all types are equally likely to have children, that means there is around a 50% chance that any given person's mother is an SF at least. There are equal amounts of E and I, and slightly more J than P. ISFJ is listed as the most common of the 4 SF types for women. E vs. I is usually easy to tell.

    Bottom line: some people really do have SFJ mothers, and some of us know our mothers well enough to understand where their real person ends and their public persona starts. It is all about what one's basis for making that claim is.
    This is interesting statistics. I still believe @SilkRoad has a point. A lot of 'mom' behaviors can seem SFJ-ish, especially when you are on the receiving end. Motherly love is naturally going to entail a lot of protectiveness, caring, structure and discipline (which good parenting should have anyway) and possibly a lot of irrationality.

    I'm not in anyway suggesting the stats are wrong or trying to argue that most moms are not SFs or anything like that. I just think that there is a high possibility that a lot of moms (especially STJs) are mistyped because the children only get to see them from the 'mom' side.
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  9. #29
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    It gets really exciting when someone bravely steps forward and says their mom/granny isn't an SJ.
    I had an ENTJ grandmother (the other one was ESTJ). The ENTJ one was married to an ISFP. The ESTJ married an INFP....

    And yes, my mother was an ESFJ....

    What little my kids know of MBTI, they'd never type me as an SFJ. More like ENTJ to them.

    It's hard being a T-woman. I want a man who will appreciate my T-ness!!!!!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    This is interesting statistics. I still believe @SilkRoad has a point. A lot of 'mom' behaviors can seem SFJ-ish, especially when you are on the receiving end. Motherly love is naturally going to entail a lot of protectiveness, caring, structure and discipline (which good parenting should have anyway) and possibly a lot of irrationality.
    Or, you know, it could be that "mom behaviours" are SJF-ish because moms are more likely to be SFJ than anything else...? Sometimes, there are good reasons for stereotypes.

    If most moms were INTP, we'd have a very different notion of "typical" mothering behaviour.

    Now, as to whether the overwhelming SFJ nature of women (and STJ nature of men) is nature or nurture? That's another debate. But this phenomenon has little to do with kids mistyping their mothers/grandmothers.
    (Incidentally, my maternal grandmother is probably ESTP, certainly NOT any kind of SFJ).
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