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Fe-second vs. Fe-last?

Cloud of Thunder

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I'm trying to figure out the difference between how Fe manifests as either the auxiliary function (e.g. INFJ and ISFJ) or the inferior function (e.g. ISTP and INTP). I ask because even though I definitely utilize Fe-Ti, I'm unclear as to what order I use them in. Any takers?
 

ScottJames

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This can be a little tricky to wrap your head around as an INFJ. It's not uncommon for our 2nd function to feel the most abstract to us - especially with Ni as the primary, which sees a myriad of possibilities and perspectives.

Fe will tend to show up as an inferior process in the form of drama or emotional irrationality.

Our inferior process is also a sort of unconscious aspiration, so it can become a force for good. Bill Gates (INTP) and his philanthropic endeavors for example, or Tim Ferriss (INTJ) and his last couple books (4 Hour Body and 4 Hour Work Week - very Se). Things that require heavy use of the inferior process require so much conscious activity in taking skills through the stages of competence that they often make the person who works through them especially good at teaching those things. A disproportionate number of INJs end up in the health and fitness industry.

The 2nd function is almost always the highest leverage point for development, at least through the prime of your life. Ti can be more comfortable, particularly for shy INFJs, since it's in the preferred realm (introverted). Essentially, you're using Ti when you're being analytical. If you stay in the introverted realm too much then Fe will likely be less developed and you'll end having issues relating to the outside world and/or being an asshole, depression, etc.

Your Fe is the part of you that's acutely aware of what other people are feeling. As a developed strength, it will show up in legitimately helping people on larger and larger scales and with more impact. The more you develop it the happier you'll be. It requires getting out of the comfort zone, but it's very much worth it.
 

StephMC

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I can't speak for IxFJs, but as my 4th function, Fe really does play my "aspirational" role. I use Ti first-- logic is my default mode--, and only use Fe when I suddenly realize I might have hurt someone's feelings. It's usually a paranoid sort of feeling. And even when it's not a paranoid version of Fe, it's usually at the expense of what I feel comfortable with. It's those reasons I aspire to be better at Fe. It's not something that's going to go away, so at the very least I wish I could be more comfortable with its use.
 

entropie

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Our inferior process is also a sort of unconscious aspiration, so it can become a force for good. Bill Gates (INTP) and his philanthropic endeavors for example, or Tim Ferriss (INTJ) and his last couple books (4 Hour Body and 4 Hour Work Week - very Se). Things that require heavy use of the inferior process require so much conscious activity in taking skills through the stages of competence that they often make the person who works through them especially good at teaching those things. A disproportionate number of INJs end up in the health and fitness industry.

Thats an intresting take. In my relationship to a Fi-dom I have often those moments when I want to teach her how to behave and say things in public, but have to restrain myself because it just isnt necessary. I have developed a quite big issue with that, namely that I always want people to teach how to behave or what they could do, to achieve the maximum of cool.

Thats totally bogus compared to me always having been a rebel. It got probably motivated by people asking me for help on that topic in the past and me being a perfectionist, trieing to live up to a task, I was not made for. Now it has just turned into some sick twist, I want to get rid of and be myself again.
 

ScottJames

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Thats an intresting take. In my relationship to a Fi-dom I have often those moments when I want to teach her how to behave and say things in public, but have to restrain myself because it just isnt necessary. I have developed a quite big issue with that, namely that I always want people to teach how to behave or what they could do, to achieve the maximum of cool.

Thats totally bogus compared to me always having been a rebel. It has just turned into some sick twist, I want to get rid of and be myself again.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Did you mean to say Si-dom?
 
R

RDF

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[...] Our inferior process is also a sort of unconscious aspiration, so it can become a force for good. Bill Gates (INTP) and his philanthropic endeavors for example, or Tim Ferriss (INTJ) and his last couple books (4 Hour Body and 4 Hour Work Week - very Se). Things that require heavy use of the inferior process require so much conscious activity in taking skills through the stages of competence that they often make the person who works through them especially good at teaching those things. A disproportionate number of INJs end up in the health and fitness industry. [...]

Yeah, this applies to me (INFP with a Te inferior process). Now that I’m retired and have some time on my hands, I enjoy reading books on Te-based skills (organization, management, productivity, etc.) and Fe-based skills (networking, sales, etc.). Both are important areas in the working world, and both areas were weak for me as an INFP.

While I was still working, I actually “intuited” and used much of what I’m reading now; that is, I picked those skills up as needed from other people around me or “reinvented the wheel” for my own purposes. But now that I have some leisure to investigate further, it’s interesting to study those areas academically, that is, as systems and disciplines.

I also see those two areas as important skills even in retirement. They say that old age requires more discipline than youth because the body and mind are less flexible and less able to take abuse, one needs to deliberately impose schedules and maintain productivity to stay active and avoid just sitting around watching TV all the time, etc. So in some ways I’m using those Te- and Fe-based skills even more aggressively in my retirement than in my working years, when my day was largely structured by people and events outside myself.
 
R

RDF

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Did you mean to say Si-dom?

As I read it, I think he’s saying that his INFP (Fi-Dom) girlfriend could use more social savvy at times. That realization causes him to engage his own inferior Si to help her with that, but it’s a role he doesn’t particularly relish (i.e., the role of a teacher of social etiquette.)
 

entropie

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Did you mean to say Si-dom?

As I read it, I think he’s saying that his INFP (Fi-Dom) girlfriend could use more social savvy at times. That realization causes him to engage his own inferior Si to help her with that, but it’s a role he doesn’t particularly relish (i.e., the role of a teacher of social etiquette.)

Yes and no, I meant Fe as my third inferior function, but I just realized you were explicitly talking about the fourth function. But it goes hand in hand. Since I am living and was raised in a very Si dominated city, it is often especially those customs and traditions I try to call my girlfriend on. She was raised very independant from society due to her family being part french, being very open minded and living in a small village with only 300 people in it. I come from a region with 11 billion people living in it, am very connected to society and am raised very traditional and uninventive.

So I think what I say still applies, with Fe being the medium to translate the Si perception.
 

ScottJames

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OK sorry I just realized I totally mis-read your post. Always interesting to hear perspectives on how the functions show up for different people. Thanks!
 
R

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Yes and no, I meant Fe as my third inferior function, but I just realized you were explicitly talking about the fourth function. But it goes hand in hand. Since I am living and was raised in a very Si dominated city, it is often especially those customs and traditions I try to call my girlfriend on. She was raised very independant from society due to her family being part french, being very open minded and living in a small village with only 300 people in it. I come from a region with 11 billion people living in it, am very connected to society and am raised very traditional and uninventive.

So I think what I say still applies, with Fe being the medium to translate the Si perception.

Oops. My bad. Fe-third rather than Fe-second or Fe-last. :)
 

Cloud of Thunder

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The 2nd function is almost always the highest leverage point for development, at least through the prime of your life. Ti can be more comfortable, particularly for shy INFJs, since it's in the preferred realm (introverted). Essentially, you're using Ti when you're being analytical. If you stay in the introverted realm too much then Fe will likely be less developed and you'll end having issues relating to the outside world and/or being an asshole, depression, etc.
If this is true, then I must be using Ni and Ti almost exclusively now because I can't stand being around people 95% of the time.
 

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Auxiliary function
A helpful second or third function, according to Jung’s model of typology, that has a co-determining influence on consciousness.


Absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, because the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily produce a different orientation which, partially at least, would contradict the first. But since it is a vital condition for the conscious process of adaptation always to have clear and unambiguous aims, the presence of a second function of equal power is naturally ruled out. This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance. . . . Its secondary importance is due to the fact that it is not, like the primary function . . . an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function.["General Description of the Types," CW 6, par. 667.]

The auxiliary function is always one whose nature differs from, but is not antagonistic to, the superior or primary function: either of the irrational functions (intuition and sensation) can be auxiliary to one of the rational functions (thinking and feeling), and vice versa.

Thus thinking and intuition can readily pair, as can thinking and sensation, since the nature of intuition and sensation is not fundamentally opposed to the thinking function. Similarly, sensation can be bolstered by an auxiliary function of thinking or feeling, feeling is aided by sensation or intuition, and intuition goes well with feeling or thinking.

The resulting combinations [see figure below] present the familiar picture of, for instance, practical thinking allied with sensation, speculative thinking forging ahead with intuition, artistic intuition selecting and presenting its images with the help of feeling-values, philosophical intuition systematizing its vision into comprehensive thought by means of a powerful intellect, and so on.[Ibid., par. 669.]

Inferior function
The least differentiated of the four psychological functions. (Compare primary function.)


The inferior function is practically identical with the dark side of the human personality.["Concerning Rebirth," CW 9i, par. 222.]

In Jung’s model of typology, the inferior or fourth function is opposite to the superior or primary function. Whether it operates in an introverted or extraverted way, it behaves like an autonomous complex; its activation is marked by affect and it resists integration.

The inferior function secretly and mischievously influences the superior function most of all, just as the latter represses the former most strongly.["The Phenomenology of the Spirit in Fairytales," ibid., par. 431.]

Positive as well as negative occurrences can constellate the inferior counter-function. When this happens, sensitiveness appears. Sensi-tiveness is a sure sign of of the presence of inferiority. This provides the psychological basis for discord and misunderstanding, not only as between two people, but also in ourselves. The essence of the inferior function is autonomy: it is independent, it attacks, it fascinates and so spins us about that we are no longer masters of ourselves and can no longer rightly distinguish between ourselves and others["The Problem of the Attitude-Type," CW 7, par. 85.]

The inferior function is always of the same nature, rational or irrational, as the primary function: when thinking is most developed, the other rational function, feeling, is inferior; if sensation is dominant, then intuition, the other irrational function, is the fourth function, and so on. This accords with general experience: the thinker is tripped up by feeling values; the practical sensation type gets into a rut, blind to the possibilities seen by intuition; the feeling type is deaf to logical thinking; and the intuitive, at home in the inner world, runs afoul of concrete reality.

One may be aware of the perceptions or judgments associated with the inferior function, but these are generally over-ridden by the superior function. Thinking types, for example, do not give their feelings much weight. Sensation types have intuitions, but they are not motivated by them. Similarly, feeling types brush away disturbing thoughts and intuitives ignore what is right in front of them.

Although the inferior function may be conscious as a phenomenon its true significance nevertheless remains unrecognized. It behaves like many repressed or insufficiently appreciated contents, which are partly conscious and partly unconscious . . . . Thus in normal cases the inferior function remains conscious, at least in its effects; but in a neurosis it sinks wholly or in part into the unconscious. ["Definitions," CW 6, par. 764.]

To the extent that a person functions too one-sidedly, the inferior function becomes correspondingly primitive and troublesome. The overly dominant primary function takes energy away from the inferior function, which falls into the unconscious. There it is prone to be activated in an unnatural way, giving rise to infantile desires and other symptoms of imbalance. This is the situation in neurosis.

In order to extricate the inferior function from the unconscious by analysis, the unconscious fantasy formations that have now been activated must be brought to the surface. The conscious realization of these fantasies brings the inferior function to consciousness and makes further development possible.[Ibid., par. 764.]

When it becomes desirable or necessary to develop the inferior function, this can only happen gradually.

I have frequently observed how an analyst, confronted with a terrific thinking type, for instance, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. Such an attempt is foredoomed to failure, because it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. Should the violation nevertheless be successful, a really compulsive dependence of the patient on the analyst ensues, a transference that can only be brutally terminated, because, having been left without a standpoint, the patient has made his standpoint the analyst. . . . [Therefore] in order to cushion the impact of the unconscious, an irrational type needs a stronger development of the rational auxiliary function present in consciousness [and vice versa].["General Description of the Types," ibid., par. 670.]

Attempts to assimilate the inferior function are usually accompanied by a deterioration in the primary function. The thinking type can’t write an essay, the sensation type gets lost and forgets appointments, the intuitive loses touch with possibilities, and the feeling type can’t decide what something’s worth.

And yet it is necessary for the development of character that we should allow the other side, the inferior function, to find expression. We cannot in the long run allow one part of our personality to be cared for symbiotically by another; for the moment when we might have need of the other function may come at any time and find us unprepared. ["The Problem of the Attitude-Type," CW 7, par. 86.]

and in order to understand the "least differentiated function" thing on inferior description, you should understand what differentiation means:

Differentiation
The separation of parts from a whole, necessary for conscious access to the psychological functions.


So long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions-thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc.-that it is unable to operate on its own, it is in an archaic condition, i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself. Undifferentiated thinking is incapable of thinking apart from other functions; it is continually mixed up with sensations, feelings, intuitions, just as undifferentiated feeling is mixed up with sensations and fantasies.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 705.]

An undifferentiated function is characterized by ambivalence (every position entails its own negative), which leads to characteristic inhibitions in its use.

Differentiation consists in the separation of the function from other functions, and in the separation of its individual parts from each other. Without differentiation direction is impossible, since the direction of a function towards a goal depends on the elimination of anything irrelevant. Fusion with the irrelevant precludes direction; only a differentiated function is capable of being directed.[ Ibid., par. 705.]

quotes are from here: http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/a
 

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oh and you should read this too, from 'psychological types':

The Principal and Auxiliary Functions

In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that such pure types occur at all frequently in actual practice. The are, as it were, only Galtonesque family-portraits, which sum up in a cumulative image the common and therefore typical characters, stressing these disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced. Accurate investigation of the individual case consistently reveals the fact that, in conjunction with the most differentiated function, another function of secondary importance, and therefore of inferior differentiation in consciousness, is constantly present, and is a—relatively determining factor.

For the sake of clarity let us again recapitulate: The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness. The latter event is true when, for instance, thinking is not a mere esprit de l'escalier, or rumination, but when its decisions possess an absolute validity, so that the logical conclusion in a given case holds good, whether as motive or as guarantee of practical action, without the backing of any further evidence. This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first. But, since it is a vital condition for the conscious adaptation-process that constantly clear and unambiguous aims should be in evidence, the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function. Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom thinking and feeling stand upon the same level, whereby both have equal motive power in consciousness. But, in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of a relatively undeveloped thinking and feeling. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.

Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking—for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking—but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. As soon as they reached the same level of differentiation as thinking, they would cause a change of attitude, which would contradict the tendency of thinking. For they would convert the judging attitude into a perceiving one; whereupon the principle of rationality indispensable to thought would be suppressed in favour of the irrationality of mere perception. Hence the auxiliary function is possible and useful only in so far as it serves the leading function, without making any claim to the autonomy of its own principle.

For all the types appearing in practice, the principle holds good that besides the conscious main function there is also a relatively unconscious, auxiliary function which is in every respect different from the nature of the main function. From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgment, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth.

A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition. This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases. But for such a man it is important to know about it. For I have frequently observed the way in which a physician, in the case for instance of an exclusively intellectual subject, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. This attempt must always come to grief, since it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. Should such a violation succeed, there ensues a really compulsive dependence of the patient upon the physician, a 'transference' which can be amputated only by brutality, because such a violation robs the patient of a standpoint—his physician becomes his standpoint. But the approach to the unconscious and to the most repressed function is disclosed, as it were, of itself, and with more adequate protection of the conscious standpoint, when the way of development is via the secondary function—thus in the case of a rational type by way of the irrational function. For this lends the conscious standpoint such a range and prospect over what is possible and imminent that consciousness gains an adequate protection against the destructive effect of the unconscious. Conversely, an irrational type demands a stronger development of the rational auxiliary function represented in consciousness, in order to be sufficiently prepared to receive the impact of the unconscious.

The unconscious functions are in an archaic, animal state. Their symbolical appearances in dreams and phantasies usually represent the battle or coming encounter of two animals or monsters.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm pretty strong Ni-Ti dom-tert loop kinda girl, so I'm not very good at Fe in terms of perceiving external social dynamics. I am sensitive to specific external individuals and interact based on empathy of emotional undercurrents. I absorb a lot of the external world of emotions, but focus on internal, individual experience, rather than social dynamics and expectations. It is still external, but not group oriented. Groups overwhelm me because there are way too many signals to process, so I end up confused and over-stimulated. I work with people one-on-one, but do tend to focus on the other person's emotional world moreso than my own. I can be oblivious to my own feelings and overly sensitive to others if I'm not being balanced.

In a nutshell, my comprehension is intensely introverted and individual focused, but yet still external when it comes to emotions.
 

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I'm trying to figure out the difference between how Fe manifests as either the auxiliary function (e.g. INFJ and ISFJ) or the inferior function (e.g. ISTP and INTP). I ask because even though I definitely utilize Fe-Ti, I'm unclear as to what order I use them in. Any takers?

You and I both, my friend.
 

entropie

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I'm pretty strong Ni-Ti dom-tert loop kinda girl, so I'm not very good at Fe in terms of perceiving external social dynamics. I am sensitive to specific external individuals and interact based on empathy of emotional undercurrents. I absorb a lot of the external world of emotions, but focus on internal, individual experience, rather than social dynamics and expectations. It is still external, but not group oriented. Groups overwhelm me because there are way too many signals to process, so I end up confused and over-stimulated. I work with people one-on-one, but do tend to focus on the other person's emotional world moreso than my own. I can be oblivious to my own feelings and overly sensitive to others if I'm not being balanced.

In a nutshell, my comprehension is intensely introverted and individual focused, but yet still external when it comes to emotions.

That sounds like I have to do the dishes today again, right ?
 
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