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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    You have taken that which creates all the confusion about MBTI in the first place and turned it into your 'own' type indicator. Wonderful.
    Can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult.

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grublet View Post
    The Keirsey temperaments don't really make a lot of sense. Why not NJ/NP with SJ/SP? Or NT/NF with ST/SF? Is not the dominant function the most important?
    its SJ/SP/NT/NF because the difference of having Si vs Se is much bigger than the difference between Ni vs Ne, while Se and Si are completely different, Ne and Ni can seem quite similar. thats why S types are divided into extraversion/introversion of sensation, while N types are divided by whether they have T or F preference.

    yes dominant is the most important, but that doesent mean that aux doesent come close, especially in well developed person. for example ENTP who has well developed Ti isnt much different from INTP, actually it might be really hard to tell the two apart and you would most likely have to look at tert/inferior to see the difference(which might be hard even then if tert/inferior are well developed). as an example of TI heavy ENTP, if aux wouldnt matter much, he should be close to what ENFP is, even tho ENTP is miles away from ENFP, unless both had only developed the dom function(in which case aux doesent matter much).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    its SJ/SP/NT/NF because the difference of having Si vs Se is much bigger than the difference between Ni vs Ne, while Se and Si are completely different, Ne and Ni can seem quite similar. thats why S types are divided into extraversion/introversion of sensation, while N types are divided by whether they have T or F preference.

    yes dominant is the most important, but that doesent mean that aux doesent come close, especially in well developed person. for example ENTP who has well developed Ti isnt much different from INTP, actually it might be really hard to tell the two apart and you would most likely have to look at tert/inferior to see the difference(which might be hard even then if tert/inferior are well developed). as an example of TI heavy ENTP, if aux wouldnt matter much, he should be close to what ENFP is, even tho ENTP is miles away from ENFP, unless both had only developed the dom function(in which case aux doesent matter much).
    MY IDEAS NEVER WORK OUT.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grublet View Post
    MY IDEAS NEVER WORK OUT.
    you should study the ideas of others before trying to replace them with your own ideas
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    you should study the ideas of others before trying to replace them with your own ideas
    I should get more well acquainted with them before doing that, yes.

  6. #16
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    theoretically, because S types are more in touch with reality, their engagement with the external universe - whether they Judge the external or Perceive the external - will have a larger impact on their life orientation. in other words, if we think of every person's cognition as a math equation, Ss pull in more variables from the tangible world, thus the extent to which they intentionally impact their tangible world will have a major influence on their cognition. thus ESFJ could be more like ISTJ than ESFP because both ESFJ and ISTJ are very active in controlling their environments. ESFP is much less interested in controlling the external environment and is much more likely to have a markedly different way of seeing life.

    on the other hand, Ns are more conceptual, and therefore their Judgment functions will play a larger role in how they conceptualize the universe and thereby how they orient themselves towards life. their cognitive equations are much more influenced by what patterns they focus on, which is heavily impacted by their sense of prioritization as dictated by T vs. F. thus INTP and ENFP may have a similar laissez faire lifestyle, but overall INTP is more likely to have an attitude more similar to also-logical ENTJ. ENFP will more likely resonate with INFJ, who is similarly ethical and humanistic.

    that is the reasoning, in any case. i think it can play out or not based on enneagram, instinctual variants, and other factors: an ESFP 2w3 so/sp may well relate more in terms of overall life outlook with an ESFJ 6w7 sx/so than with an ISTP 7w8 sp/sx, for example. or perhaps not.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    theoretically, because S types are more in touch with reality, their engagement with the external universe - whether they Judge the external or Perceive the external - will have a larger impact on their life orientation. in other words, if we think of every person's cognition as a math equation, Ss pull in more variables from the tangible world, thus the extent to which they intentionally impact their tangible world will have a major influence on their cognition. thus ESFJ could be more like ISTJ than ESFP because both ESFJ and ISTJ are very active in controlling their environments. ESFP is much less interested in controlling the external environment and is much more likely to have a markedly different way of seeing life.

    on the other hand, Ns are more conceptual, and therefore their Judgment functions will play a larger role in how they conceptualize the universe and thereby how they orient themselves towards life. their cognitive equations are much more influenced by what patterns they focus on, which is heavily impacted by their sense of prioritization as dictated by T vs. F. thus INTP and ENFP may have a similar laissez faire lifestyle, but overall INTP is more likely to have an attitude more similar to also-logical ENTJ. ENFP will more likely resonate with INFJ, who is similarly ethical and humanistic.

    that is the reasoning, in any case. i think it can play out or not based on enneagram, instinctual variants, and other factors: an ESFP 2w3 so/sp may well relate more in terms of overall life outlook with an ESFJ 6w7 sx/so than with an ISTP 7w8 sp/sx, for example. or perhaps not.
    your previous post says that it was posted minute before this. did you really add all that stuff in under 2 mins?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  8. #18
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    your previous post says that it was posted minute before this. did you really add all that stuff in under 2 mins?
    well first off thank you for alerting me to the double post! secondly... i guess so? i don't know if i should be proud or embarrassed

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i don't know if i should be proud or embarrassed
    yes you do :P
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    theoretically, because S types are more in touch with reality, their engagement with the external universe - whether they Judge the external or Perceive the external - will have a larger impact on their life orientation. in other words, if we think of every person's cognition as a math equation, Ss pull in more variables from the tangible world, thus the extent to which they intentionally impact their tangible world will have a major influence on their cognition. thus ESFJ could be more like ISTJ than ESFP because both ESFJ and ISTJ are very active in controlling their environments. ESFP is much less interested in controlling the external environment and is much more likely to have a markedly different way of seeing life.

    on the other hand, Ns are more conceptual, and therefore their Judgment functions will play a larger role in how they conceptualize the universe and thereby how they orient themselves towards life. their cognitive equations are much more influenced by what patterns they focus on, which is heavily impacted by their sense of prioritization as dictated by T vs. F. thus INTP and ENFP may have a similar laissez faire lifestyle, but overall INTP is more likely to have an attitude more similar to also-logical ENTJ. ENFP will more likely resonate with INFJ, who is similarly ethical and humanistic.
    Great observation! I had tried to cover this before, when identifying Keirsey's temperaments as the "leadership" area of temperament (while Interaction Styles are the social area).

    Here I explained it on my old longer page on type:
    ...the area of information gathering ("perception"), by which we then gain the knowledge of the world around us; allowing us to make the decisions to survive with; would fall into the "Control" [conative; Keirsey groups, dealing with "action"] area. A person's wanting or not wanting of "interaction" in that area (to control or be controlled [i.e. expressiveness vs responsiveness, or cooperative/pragmatic vs structure/motive]) would be indirectly tied to his preference for perception.

    If his perception is concrete [S]; and then if it is also inward-oriented [Si function; SJ's], he won't want any interaction in control, from the outside. He won't want to control [pragmatic, so he'll be cooperative instead] or be controlled by others [see Berens' definition of structure focus].
    If his perception is outward instead [Se; SP's], then he will swing back and forth between controlling and being controlled based on the concrete input he is receiving from the outside world. [He'll be pragmatic and motive focused, and you can even see this FIRO-esque "independent-dependent conflict" tendency in places in Keirsey's books].

    For people whose preference is iNtuition [N], the "self preservation" temperament will not be determined by whether the perception is inward or outward. That is too "concrete", where they are abstract. (That will instead determine their social orientation). So rather, it will be the judging function the perception is paired with that determines the Control behavior.
    Thinking (Tough mindedness) will desire to control [pragmatic], but not be controlled [structure], and Feeling (Friendliness) will not desire to control [cooperative], but be more likely to allow control by others. [See Berens' definition of "motive"].
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

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