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  1. #71
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I cant just know someone. I have to be around them and to be able to see and interact with them. Even something like time can cause that map i have built to be destroyed and i end up back at square one.

    The thing is that ii dont have to study someone to draw that map. It just builds itself as i interact. But pretty much everyone starts with a blank slate. My first impression and what builds a huge amount quickly is looks. Not things like clothing style, are they dressed sharp or is there clothes expensive, but posture, face, tone, etc.

    I am probably really harrd to read because if we are not in the right setting you wont get much of a response out of me. Also depending on how you hold conversations you might not get much out of me.

    I dont relate to agreements...basically the more I know you the more u get outta me.
    Interesting. Maybe because you have inferior Fe, so you rely more on Si to experience people and Ti to make sense of them. Ni people would have a harder time I think, because while Si is pretty straightforward, Ni can generate a million possibilities.

  2. #72
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    So no big fan of anti-authoritarian education, too ?
    I don't understand what you mean, entropie. I'm a big fan of Montessori style education that tailors curriculum to each child and where you sometimes earn alligators or rabbits instead of A's and F's.

    I'm a bit anti-authoritarian myself, but try to be reasoned and not glib about it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #73
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I can see this.

    @bolded: Do I have any of those? What do those look like, exactly? Is that when shadow Fi comes up and tries to communicate with my conscious mind but utterly fails and I feel like a big murky swamp that doesn't make any sense? Is that when what I feel differs from anything sensible I think I should be feeling in response to the situation?
    Well I actually wrote this a bit less detached from the content, so its more that I would have problems with that, having Fe in such a retracted position. I think a dom Fe would have an easier time talking about him- or herself tho I'ld still think that regarding introspection he couldnt beat a dom Fi.

    For me regarding Fe, I often do not let emotions happen. So when something bad happens to me, I'll just go on and on without taking time to grief for instance. The same applies for happy moments, I rarely enjoy them, I merely notice that this is a happy moment and then go on to the next task. The worst thing for me tho is shadow Fi. As socionics likes to call it the Point of least resistance:

    Unstable in maintaining psychological distance. May have trouble making clear attraction. Can hide their personal sentiments when pushed and avoids the public examination of their desires. ILE's tend to be unaware of how others view them relationship wise, unstable in levels of trust. View relationships skeptically unless legitimized. This can result in a mistrust of others and a general wariness regarding others' opinions of them, potentially causing irrational behaviors based on misconceptions in this area. They appreciate people who can reassure them of the status of a relationship.

    An ILE may view many accepted moral standards with scorn if they do not make logical sense to him and may be frustrated if convenient loopholes in a system are said to be 'out of bounds' morally. Indeed, the ILE may come to the conclusion that if he has not done anything legally wrong, then he could not possibly have done something morally wrong. Such thinking may bemuse more ethical types. In more extreme circumstances, the ILE will see morality as just another system to be taken apart and studied, shocking types who value moral traditions when he uses logic and his clever insight to dissolve moral imperatives. e.g. "You may view human sacrifice as something inherently wrong but that's just a result of your upbringing. If you were raised an Aztec you would have seen it as a remarkable thing, believing it to be responsible for keeping your crops watered and the sun moving across the sky."
    Especially the first paragraph I experience often. Sometimes people feel uncomfortable cause they dont understand why I am treating them like a buddy, tho they are a business contact. Same things happen with my dom Fi gf: she often tells me when I dont show enough psychological distance. I for instance added the woman who rented our appartment to us on facebook and my gf said that I cant do that, it would be improfessional.

    Regarding morality I am in a greyzone with tendency towards the moral side. I just dont always notice whats the right thing to do. But I am too not behaving immoral on purpose. The last sentence in the second paragraph could be one on one a thing I'ld have said.

    Regarding seeing Fe and Fi in you I dont know you too much, besides I suck at analyzing NTs. But I think especially the moral aspect and the psychological distance one plays a role too in shadow Fi for you. That would be at least what I think regarding intps. You could read that up here a bit, the write intresting desriptions:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=ILI

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I don't understand what you mean, entropie. I'm a big fan of Montessori style education that tailors curriculum to each child and where you sometimes earn alligators or rabbits instead of A's and F's.

    I'm a bit anti-authoritarian myself, but try to be reasoned and not glib about it.
    I thought, because you said you dont like naivete in people with positions of privilege, that you like your kids raised to authoritarian generals.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #74
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Well I actually wrote this a bit less detached from the content, so its more that I would have problems with that, having Fe in such a retracted position. I think a dom Fe would have an easier time talking about him- or herself tho I'ld still think that regarding introspection he couldnt beat a dom Fi.

    For me regarding Fe, I often do not let emotions happen. So when something bad happens to me, I'll just go on and on without taking time to grief for instance. The same applies for happy moments, I rarely enjoy them, I merely notice that this is a happy moment and then go on to the next task. The worst thing for me tho is shadow Fi. As socionics likes to call it the Point of least resistance:



    Especially the first paragraph I experience often. Sometimes people feel uncomfortable cause they dont understand why I am treating them like a buddy, tho they are a business contact. Same things happen with my dom Fi gf: she often tells me when I dont show enough psychological distance. I for instance added the woman who rented our appartment to us on facebook and my gf said that I cant do that, it would be improfessional.

    Regarding morality I am in a greyzone with tendency towards the moral side. I just dont always notice whats the right thing to do. But I am too not behaving immoral on purpose. The last sentence in the second paragraph could be one on one a thing I'ld have said.

    Regarding seeing Fe and Fi in you I dont know you too much, besides I suck at analyzing NTs. But I think especially the moral aspect and the psychological distance one plays a role too in shadow Fi for you. That would be at least what I think regarding intps. You could read that up here a bit, the write intresting desriptions:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=ILI
    All of what you've said I can relate to to some extent. I do think there are things which are ethical and unethical, but it depends a lot on circumstances, and most of the time people think they know what they're talking about and don't and just like having an opinion.

    Haha I wasn't expecting you to analyze my emotions and functions (and thanks for not presuming to be able to); I was just thinking out loud about myself to find out more what you mean. I used to think I had a lot of Fi about ethics, but now that I know more about functions, all of that could just as easily be Fe, and I fit Fe in every single other way.

    I think I've read that one; there's also this link which is very informative (and right on for me).
    http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...i-intps-2.html
    People think because I don't appear like what they have in their minds that I don't know this stuff, but I do. I know what describes me and what doesn't. That said, I could possibly be INFJ.

    Edit: Wait, I think that's the wrong link. Hold on.

    Oh well. I read one which was an actual article on the subject, but I can't find it. That's an ok thread anyway.

  5. #75
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    People think because I don't appear like what they have in their minds that I don't know this stuff, but I do. I know what describes me and what doesn't. That said, I could possibly be INFJ.
    No thats very Ti, I have the exact same problem . But it doesnt matter, if someone wont talk to you cause he underestimates you, he wasnt worth talking to in the 1st place.
    Thx for the link, I'll read up on it !
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #76
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't personally understand or relate to the whole 'agreements' / established rules thing, but see it referenced quite a bit by several Fe-users in this thread. I've brought this up in similar threads, but I would need people to actually give me examples of what this is or when I do it, because I don't recognize it in myself.
    For me, 'agreements' go something like this:

    Him: Why do you always call and not want to talk?
    Me: What do you mean?
    Him: You're always calling me, talk for two minutes, and say you have to go.
    Me: That's when I'm just 'checking in' or 'checking up on you' to see when you can talk.
    Him: But you always do that! Sometimes I don't know what to expect when you call.
    Me: Will it be better if I make sure that every time I call you I'm available to talk for at least 15 minutes?
    Him: Yeah, that will make me feel better, because sometimes I want to talk right then.
    Me: Ok.

    This is a simplified version of when I had that conversation with my INFP boyfriend in real life

    As for 'establish rules', maybe it's something like "Please let me know in advance if you're not coming home for dinner"?

    Like I said, for me they are not really 'rules', but just openly discussing needs. That's just me, though. I'm not sure if other Fe-users mean the same thing.
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  7. #77
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    For me, 'agreements' go something like this:

    Him: Why do you always call and not want to talk?
    Me: What do you mean?
    Him: You're always calling me, talk for two minutes, and say you have to go.
    Me: That's when I'm just 'checking in' or 'checking up on you' to see when you can talk.
    Him: But you always do that! Sometimes I don't know what to expect when you call.
    Me: Will it be better if I make sure that every time I call you I'm available to talk for at least 15 minutes?
    Him: Yeah, that will make me feel better, because sometimes I want to talk right then.
    Me: Ok.

    This is a simplified version of when I had that conversation with my INFP boyfriend in real life

    As for 'establish rules', maybe it's something like "Please let me know in advance if you're not coming home for dinner"?

    Like I said, for me they are not really 'rules', but just openly discussing needs. That's just me, though. I'm not sure if other Fe-users mean the same thing.
    That's pretty much what I mean too.

  8. #78
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Same for me. I mostly want to know what would make the other person feel better than the course of action I took and if it loosely applies to most things, or just a specific situation/category. Similarly, if something goes wrong and I feel upset, I feel like it is only fair to explain what about it was the problem and what I see as a possible solution (open for input and negotiation), rather than letting the other person flounder around while I feel angry or sad about what they did. To me, understanding the underlying principle of WHY the other person felt upset in the situation is a huge help to me for avoiding problems later. Maybe not everyone feels that way, but for me, understanding the why goes a long way to responding in a way that the other person feels is considerate.

  9. #79
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    I've observed a few things with people who use Fe vs people who use Fi (really analyzing just those who use Fi and Fe as their first or second function filter).

    I've noticed those with Fi as their first function tend to bottle it up and resent. I've known IxFJs do the same time, but they have always been more likely to fly off the pan handle.

    ExFPs seem to frequently be very overt in their anger when their Fi has been violated, whereas I've noticed ExFJs tend to be a little more catty and underhanded. It's an interesting dynamic.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  10. #80
    Senior Member ms.behaving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I've noticed ExFJs tend to be a little more catty and underhanded. It's an interesting dynamic.
    Pretty good observations. I hate catty. I fight catty with catty. I will make you feel what I feel until you stop!
    - MB

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