User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 92

  1. #61
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It would probably depend on how well developed the function was. So, if you are inferior Fe or Fi, it would manifest itself in a far less productive way than if you were an Fe or Fi dom. As Fi tertiary, if my values are violated, I may respond in a strong way emotionally - indignation, frustration, hurt, etc. depending on the severity of the thing of course. It is pretty hard for me not to express what I am feeling - either directly with that person or with someone else. I try to channel the thing for productive purposes but it isn't always entirely possible.
    Yeah, I agree. Hence differences in type (as well as general development).

  2. #62
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Fe is more calculating and prudent. Taking objective factors into the situation.

    Fi just looks like an explosion in all directions. What you "see" is Te, and the explosion really just doesn't give a damn about who it's dealing with.
    Likes Flâneuse liked this post

  3. #63
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    748 sx/so
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Yes, I understood it the first time then, and still I'm surprised that you should say that, because I've never felt that "continuity", that continuous interest in me from the part of an Fe-user. I've honestly never felt that they were trying to "understand" me, I mostly feel Fe as an intrusion, as some sort of behavioral fascism. What you talk about I honestly associate with Fi.
    Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. Continue your discussion
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    @pinkgraffiti - I hesitated to write what I did lest it be mistaken. What I meant was, skylights was talking the other day about the Fe impulse to analyze every little bit of behaviour to figure out why the person was different than usual, what they were thinking etc. She felt it was kind of strange and maybe intrusive to constantly be trying to "solve the puzzle" of other people. What's it to them if someone was a little more animated today than yesterday and how is that even an interesting point to dwell on? I'm not saying that Fi users aren't interested in understanding people. I think they just go about it in a different manner. For Fe, behaviour usually contains an underlying meaning, out of which someone can construct meaning after observing many instances over time. In my experience, I don't think Fi attaches the same importance to those kinds of things, but is more tuned in to the generally resonance that the person produces in them and what it means. I don't know if this is true or not, but from the outside that's how it appears. I should have explained myself better.

  4. #64
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think the difference might lie in the fact that NFPs tend to look at a person holistically. And, subsequently, we feel loved by being understood. That sort of implies that you do not *need* a fucking manual to deal with those you love, as you make it a point to *know* them. That coming to an agreement and setting rules and guidelines within a relationship feels..well, constricting. Sure, it has its benefits to use Te (coz thats what that is to us) to outline things in the world and organise shit, and even deal with logistics within a relationship, but to regulate the relationship itself is..constricting. It takes away the spontaneity, the authenticity and ultimately..it builds resentment as your relationship appears to be more about duties and obligations than about genuinly loving and appreciating the other and doing things for them *because* you are motivated by that love, not by a sense of 'oh right, this was in the contract as well.'

    That also means that when conflicts arise, you trust in that ability to read and understand the other person to hash it out here and now. And you in a way *expect* (at least I do, from my boyfriend, its the one exception I have on expectations as I hate them, but I screen for it thoroughly in selecting a mate) the other to put in the effort to know you and understand you well enough to help you resolve that conflict. In my case, that includes *knowing* that I fucking love you and that I aint saying things to hurt you just for the heck of it. That I do not feel the need to backstab you or hurt you in the process, but that I accidentally might as Im frustrated and hurt myself. I demand to get the benefit of the doubt on that though. I love you, therefore hurting you is unlikely to be my goal. If you know me at all, for that matter, you'd know it is the furthest thing from my mind. And that works vice versa as well. That way no resentment can build up, things are out in the open, we know where we stand even if we do not like it, and we still love each other despite what was said. And now we can pick up the pieces and build towards a great future together.

    In essence, i do not want you to agree with me upon how to resolve things and use rules (which always have x-amount of exceptions *anyways*) to relate to me. That to me, is for amateurs (no offense, seriously, I know this must be frustrating to hear for Fe-users). I want mastery. I want you to know me so intimately that rules are not necessary, that you can use what you know about me so diligently that there *are* no rules anymore. You just *know*. For you to become a master at who i am (and for me to do the same) is the greatest display of love thinkable. It basically comes down to 'Paint by Numbers' vs exquisite art, in my books. And while one can lead to the other and can work as a great support system, it ultimately becomes limiting when striving to obtain true mastery.

    As for the communicating needs-thing..I think that's Fe vs Te. Usually Fi-users let the chips fall where they may and are attracted to those that naturally tend to their needs (I hope, at least) and vice versa. This is done to respect the core of the other person as well as yourself. They are who they are and unless *they* decide to change themselves, that is who you will be working with. And you can choose to change yourself or not in order to do so. Even more preferable however is to not have to change a thing and let the person be themselves and naturally address each others needs due to the way you are (less resentment, less friction etc that way). If you do become incredibly close and perhaps even decide to build a future together, then the above about knowing each other (and therefore striving to anticipate one another's needs out of love!) is applied.

    When something then goes to a point where you go: 'Do not do that!', it is a Te warning as to your coming close to changing the core or demanding a change in the core. It however does not mean the Fi-user doesn't see your point/isnt capable of seeing your point as to why you would wanna go that way. They usually will be open to a conversation about how to reach the goal (Te) using alternative routes that do not disturb Fi. Decisions as to whether or not Fi needs an internal review to accommodate the goal are entirely made by the Fi-user and the process often leads to brooding alone. It requires time, introspection and will often happen without you realizing, until you come across the change by accident, or they make it a point to inform you that *this* now has changed. Often they are more than willing to elaborate as to how that change came about when asked about it (after the facts, during they are still struggling with internal conflicts and opposing views!), but this does not often come up, so it rarely happens.
    I can see where you're coming from with this perspective, and it's very helpful. However, I think most of the time it's either really hard for Fe users (especially tertiary or inferior) to just "get" someone; we need principles, established patterns of behavior, characteristics which are observed and confirmed, information, agreements and promises, etc. A person is what is observed and experienced, and we have to make sense of our observations and experiences with Ti. I can know a person; but being in a relationship, whatever the nature of it is, depends on agreements and reciprocity. So we essentially do need a user manual. Also to me a refusal to make an agreement about a certain behavior is a violation of trust, since I have no way of knowing whether they'll do that thing again; and if they do that means we have less of a relationship. Maybe I have trust issues, but I feel like trust is earned and doesn't follow just from knowing a person. I have to have a good experience with them as well. And if I experience something negative, I'd like them to care enough to prevent that thing from happening in the future and give me assurance of that.

    Not to be confrontational: Fe venting my feelings. Does all that make sense? How would you deal with that sort of thing from a friend/loved one as an Fi user?

  5. #65
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I can see where you're coming from with this perspective, and it's very helpful. However, I think most of the time it's either really hard for Fe users (especially tertiary or inferior) to just "get" someone; we need principles, established patterns of behavior, characteristics which are observed and confirmed, information, agreements and promises, etc. A person is what is observed and experienced, and we have to make sense of our observations and experiences with Ti. I can know a person; but being in a relationship, whatever the nature of it is, depends on agreements and reciprocity. So we essentially do need a user manual. Also to me a refusal to make an agreement about a certain behavior is a violation of trust, since I have no way of knowing whether they'll do that thing again; and if they do that means we have less of a relationship. Maybe I have trust issues, but I feel like trust is earned and doesn't follow just from knowing a person. I have to have a good experience with them as well. And if I experience something negative, I'd like them to care enough to prevent that thing from happening in the future and give me assurance of that.

    Not to be confrontational: Fe venting my feelings. Does all that make sense? How would you deal with that sort of thing from a friend/loved one as an Fi user?
    Personally, as your friend who makes an effort to know you, Id work around those hurdles, because you are worth that kind of effort, and adjust my behavior specifically on parts you find hard to deal with and specifically only around you.

    As my partner however, I would not be able to deal with that as I need *somewhere* to be able to be myself and to have that treatment reciprocated onto me, even if only in a limited way.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #66
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    I don't personally understand or relate to the whole 'agreements' / established rules thing, but see it referenced quite a bit by several Fe-users in this thread. I've brought this up in similar threads, but I would need people to actually give me examples of what this is or when I do it, because I don't recognize it in myself.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  7. #67
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Huh! My parents were actually very good about explaining why I shouldn't do things. It was probably one of the things they were best at, parenting-wise, from the beginning. (Maybe it's because they're Fe-users and had stories like yours, growing up, so tried to avoid being like their own parents.)

    What you're describing makes a lot of sense; I relate to it a lot, and I think it has to do with that same Fi/Ti similarity we've been talking about. In my case, it would go similarly to what you described. Childhood example (since that's where all my examples seem to be coming from): I did something wrong, and it was horrendously wrong because I feel abnormally bad about it, so I want them to know why I did it, so that they have all the information before they start to lecture me about the situation. Maybe I took some correct steps before going into the incorrect ones, so they won't have to lecture me as much or in quite the same way. Maybe they'll have advice for me on how to change my mindset about it, if it was my mindset that was the problem. Maybe they'll be able to validate me just a little, make me feel better, before the lecturing starts. Either way, from my viewing of it, being able to look inside my head and change the way I mentally approached the issue will keep me from making the same mistake again, as opposed to just lecturing me on the events (which I'd think were a given!), attributing all responsibility to me, and telling me not to do it again. Not to mention that there's always the possibility that I wasn't 100% in the wrong, because either my process wasn't 100% wrong, or my intentions were pure. Of course, that sort of grey area is probably not something that Fe tends towards; like fidelia was saying, Fi is more live-and-let-live, so Fi would probably be more willing to call someone 75% wrong and attribute responsibility to several different parties, instead of just the one and 100% wrong. (I dunno, I'm BSing a little here.)

    It feels a lot like how I imagine Ti feels: wanting the other party to have data that's as complete as possible so that they can make their feeling judgment based on it. So when I try to provide that data and then get shut down with "We don't care, what you did was wrong, don't do it again", it feels like you're on trial but the judge decided you were guilty before you even stepped into the courtroom, and willfully ignores all your testimony.


    Edit: I don't mean to be hating on Fe so much. And I don't mean for it to look like hating, because that's not how it feels in my head.
    I identify with this. My parents were both very judgmental people. I can't figure out my mom's type, but she seems like an F (can't remove feeling from anything), and I think my dad is ISTJ. So growing up I kind of rebelled against both Fe and Te as at seemed like my parents were always telling me what I did was stupid, and trying to push me into things. Like no one trusted my judgment, so I avoided using it because I thought I was just going to get lectured. Now that I'm in my late 20's I'm understanding responsibility and embracing it, and I think I've been an Fe user all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't personally understand or relate to the whole 'agreements' / established rules thing, but see it referenced quite a bit by several Fe-users in this thread. I've brought this up in similar threads, but I would need people to actually give me examples of what this is or when I do it, because I don't recognize it in myself.
    Ok: this person and I get in fights over and over because I'll say something I think is totally innocent and she'll assume I meant something negative by it. She'll start saying things like "I don't need this argument from you," "I'm not going to let you ruin my day," "There was no need for that comment," "Don't talk to me like that," etc., and I wasn't even aware there was a conflict. I've said to her over and over that I just say what I think and it's not to start a fight, or meticulously try to communicate where the misunderstanding lay; but the last few times I told her that 9 times out of 10 it is she who is making negative assumptions, and it would help a lot if before she does this she would just ask me what I meant and if it was negative. Simple and easy. If she would agree to this, and try her best to keep the agreement, we'd have a much better relationship and I wouldn't feel infuriated every time I think about it.

    Or say you have a (romantic) open relationship (which I did for awhile). We had the agreement that before he did anything with another girl he would ask me if it was ok. That meant I could trust him.

  8. #68
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Personally, as your friend who makes an effort to know you, Id work around those hurdles, because you are worth that kind of effort, and adjust my behavior specifically on parts you find hard to deal with and specifically only around you.

    As my partner however, I would not be able to deal with that as I need *somewhere* to be able to be myself and to have that treatment reciprocated onto me, even if only in a limited way.
    Ok, that's fair. I am sensitive to people's need to have personal space (when I'm not emotional), so I can respect this for Fi users. Knowing that they are making the effort, or at least care enough to, I suppose is reciprocity. I guess it would depend on the Fi user; you seem like a mature and communicative person, but I would have to get to know someone well to know if they were. And I guess I'm talking about big agreements, now that I think about it, like in the case of an open relationship asking me before doing something with someone else. It would be ok for a lot of things to be unspoken agreements.

    I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably wouldn't be romantically compatible with someone Fi dominant or auxiliary; I think they'd think I was too pushy. But as friends they're great.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    No offense taken. I understand why you feel that way. The thing is, what might feel like 'rules' and 'manuals' for Fi-users are actually not really rules at all. Imagine two Fe-users together. It is natural for each to be extremely tuned in to what the other is feeling, picking up the slightest hints and adjusting to what the other person needs. It is not because they have set certain rules or behavior guidelines for each other to follow. It's just a flow of harmony. It's natural and not something that is imposed on anyone. I willingly adjust to you out of my love and care for you -- because I want to take care of you, I want to make you happy.
    Oh, and this quote, which I wholly agree with, might seem to contradict what I said about having a user manual. I think what I mean is that I can sense how people are feeling in a moment, and then use other functions to put that into patterns; I just appreciate some kind of predictability so there is some basis for my thoughts- otherwise I'm just spinning my wheels trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. So someone telling me how they operate can confirm these observations and help me understand things in the future.

    Also I agree with what Fe users have said about "rules": it's more like having confirmation that you see each other's perspective. Maybe Fi users don't need that confirmation. Like, for them it's fine to have a feeling affirmation; for Fe users we'd like that to translate into action. Because it's an extroverted function, we get our emotional cues from the external world. We see how relationships are, how people feel, what emotional responses go with which situations. Not having something to see bugs us and kind of feels like it's not there.

  9. #69
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I like to boil both functions dow down to the basis or foundation sometimes: for instance it is common knowledge on this site that Fe is some kind of society function while Fi deals with the true nature of things. We have worked hard and had a lot of threads to get rid of that stereotype and I think we did.
    So I like to think about it that Fi is a strong function able of introspection and understanding the self. Its downside is that people emrged in Fi can seem egoistic or shortminded like dom Ti people can. The strong side is that Fi people can way more often stand their ground in situations, talk about their feelings and explain them. Whereas this can be the FiTe aspect of it as well.
    Regarding Fe I dont think it places the utmost importance on looking cool in society. I rather think because of its 'carried out' nature or its extroverted nature, its like your heart carrieing outside of your personal shield. That makes it more vulnerable. The downside of this can be that Fe people fall victim to oppression or to the 'keeping up the groups harmony' scheme. Furthermore Fe people have a big problem to talk about their deepest of emotions, those that are really them and not the ones that came from the heart carried outside and being influenced on the outside. The strong side of Fe is that they can take on responsibility for the 'groups good mood' that they can be altruistic without hurting themselves and that they are good carers.

    I think the best example to see both functions at work is when they react to injustice. For example an Fi person and his Fe buddy are treaten badly at work by a third person. You can then maybe find the Fi retreating in a shell of coldness and letting the storm go by without a feeling, while the Fe person could take on the debate and jokingly disarm it or rationalize his own feelings so much that he can calmly resolve the conflict. Or you find the Fi person taking the fight and telling the third person like a female lion to go stick it up his ass. While the Fe user could dwell in self-pity and insecurity about what he just did wrong and why he didnt please his boss.

    The thing is, both Fi and Fe have the same capabilities in society and therefore they have the same might and power to do things. They just operate on different ways and motivations and while a Fi user could think he's detached from society because of his functions introverted nature, the Fe user can feel that he has lost grip on his personal reality so vastly that it aint fun no more. Still their capabilities of doing and moving things remain the same.
    I can see this.

    @bolded: Do I have any of those? What do those look like, exactly? Is that when shadow Fi comes up and tries to communicate with my conscious mind but utterly fails and I feel like a big murky swamp that doesn't make any sense? Is that when what I feel differs from anything sensible I think I should be feeling in response to the situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Yes, I understood it the first time then, and still I'm surprised that you should say that, because I've never felt that "continuity", that continuous interest in me from the part of an Fe-user. I've honestly never felt that they were trying to "understand" me, I mostly feel Fe as an intrusion, as some sort of behavioral fascism. What you talk about I honestly associate with Fi.
    Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. Continue your discussion
    How is it that Fi users like to be understood? Is it just intuitive? How would an Fe user communicate that intuitive understanding?

  10. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I can see where you're coming from with this perspective, and it's very helpful. However, I think most of the time it's either really hard for Fe users (especially tertiary or inferior) to just "get" someone; we need principles, established patterns of behavior, characteristics which are observed and confirmed, information, agreements and promises, etc. A person is what is observed and experienced, and we have to make sense of our observations and experiences with Ti. I can know a person; but being in a relationship, whatever the nature of it is, depends on agreements and reciprocity. So we essentially do need a user manual. Also to me a refusal to make an agreement about a certain behavior is a violation of trust, since I have no way of knowing whether they'll do that thing again; and if they do that means we have less of a relationship. Maybe I have trust issues, but I feel like trust is earned and doesn't follow just from knowing a person. I have to have a good experience with them as well. And if I experience something negative, I'd like them to care enough to prevent that thing from happening in the future and give me assurance of that.

    Not to be confrontational: Fe venting my feelings. Does all that make sense? How would you deal with that sort of thing from a friend/loved one as an Fi user?
    I cant just know someone. I have to be around them and to be able to see and interact with them. Even something like time can cause that map i have built to be destroyed and i end up back at square one.

    The thing is that ii dont have to study someone to draw that map. It just builds itself as i interact. But pretty much everyone starts with a blank slate. My first impression and what builds a huge amount quickly is looks. Not things like clothing style, are they dressed sharp or is there clothes expensive, but posture, face, tone, etc.

    I am probably really harrd to read because if we are not in the right setting you wont get much of a response out of me. Also depending on how you hold conversations you might not get much out of me.

    I dont relate to agreements...basically the more I know you the more u get outta me.
    Im out, its been fun

Similar Threads

  1. [Ne] What does Ne look like? Can you easily spot it in a crowd?
    By Dreamer in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 09-16-2015, 01:55 PM
  2. What does insecurity look like in each type?
    By Amargith in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-17-2014, 12:57 PM
  3. Learning, what does it look like for you?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-11-2012, 01:44 PM
  4. What does it look like?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 08-27-2010, 04:13 AM
  5. [Ni] Ni - What does it look like in real ife?
    By INTJMom in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 10-12-2007, 05:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO