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  1. #51
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think the difference might lie in the fact that NFPs tend to look at a person holistically. And, subsequently, we feel loved by being understood. That sort of implies that you do not *need* a fucking manual to deal with those you love, as you make it a point to *know* them. That coming to an agreement and setting rules and guidelines within a relationship feels..well, constricting. Sure, it has its benefits to use Te (coz thats what that is to us) to outline things in the world and organise shit, and even deal with logistics within a relationship, but to regulate the relationship itself is..constricting. It takes away the spontaneity, the authenticity and ultimately..it builds resentment as your relationship appears to be more about duties and obligations than about genuinly loving and appreciating the other and doing things for them *because* you are motivated by that love, not by a sense of 'oh right, this was in the contract as well.'

    That also means that when conflicts arise, you trust in that ability to read and understand the other person to hash it out here and now. And you in a way *expect* (at least I do, from my boyfriend, its the one exception I have on expectations as I hate them, but I screen for it thoroughly in selecting a mate) the other to put in the effort to know you and understand you well enough to help you resolve that conflict. In my case, that includes *knowing* that I fucking love you and that I aint saying things to hurt you just for the heck of it. That I do not feel the need to backstab you or hurt you in the process, but that I accidentally might as Im frustrated and hurt myself. I demand to get the benefit of the doubt on that though. I love you, therefore hurting you is unlikely to be my goal. If you know me at all, for that matter, you'd know it is the furthest thing from my mind. And that works vice versa as well. That way no resentment can build up, things are out in the open, we know where we stand even if we do not like it, and we still love each other despite what was said. And now we can pick up the pieces and build towards a great future together.

    In essence, i do not want you to agree with me upon how to resolve things and use rules (which always have x-amount of exceptions *anyways*) to relate to me. That to me, is for amateurs (no offense, seriously, I know this must be frustrating to hear for Fe-users). I want mastery. I want you to know me so intimately that rules are not necessary, that you can use what you know about me so diligently that there *are* no rules anymore. You just *know*. For you, to become a master at who i am (and for me to do the same) is the greatest love of all. It basically comes down to 'Paint by Numbers' vs exquisite art, in my books.

    As for the communicating needs-thing..I think that's Fe vs Te. Usually Fi-users let the chips fall where they may and are attracted to those that naturally tend to their needs (I hope, at least) and vice versa. This is done to respect the core of the other person as well as yourself. They are who they are and unless *they* decide to change themselves, that is who you will be working with. And you can choose to change yourself or not in order to do so. Even more preferable however is to not have to change a thing and let the person be themselves and naturally address each others needs due to the way you are (less resentment, less friction etc that way).
    No offense taken. I understand why you feel that way. The thing is, what might feel like 'rules' and 'manuals' for Fi-users are actually not really rules at all. Imagine two Fe-users together. It is natural for each to be extremely tuned in to what the other is feeling, picking up the slightest hints and adjusting to what the other person needs. It is not because they have set certain rules or behavior guidelines for each other to follow. It's just a flow of harmony. It's natural and not something that is imposed on anyone. I willingly adjust to you out of my love and care for you -- because I want to take care of you, I want to make you happy.

    I think what you said about mastery is true for everyone, especially in intimate relationships. Ultimately, everyone will want a relationship where you know each other so well that nothing has to be said. I think here Fe just takes the practical route and does not expect everyone to read minds. That's just what it is -- just spelling things out and consciously looking at it together to see what it is. Fi has 'rules' too -- but they are not called 'rules' because they are not apparent. Fi seems pretty ok with not understanding other people's 'rules', respecting them as part of who they are. This is natural among Fi-users.

    However, when you try to go across the Fi-Fe border, things get confusing for both sides. Fi-users feel like suddenly so much expectation is placed on them to act a certain way, and Fe-users have emotional explosions blow up in their face without warning. Of course, when two people desire a perfect relationship, this will slowly adjust itself as both people will try to accommodate to each other naturally, by learning more about each other and bend towards each other, achieving a natural compromise (which is not really a 'compromise', because the two people are motivated by their desire to fulfill each other) I think it's important not to place value judgment on the each other's way of doing things. I don't think it's fair to totally expect one partner to adjust, so Fe has to learn how to deal with less clarity, and Fi has to learn how to deal with more clarity. Just because something is visible doesn't mean it's cheap, and just because something is invisible doesn't mean it's selfish.

    With two healthy individuals, what you described would naturally happen. However, no one is completely healthy, and people unintentionally do things that are selfish and hurtful all the time. I think when Fe feels restricting and Fi feels selfish, it's a sign that something is wrong that that much conflict was created in the first place. From my experience in my relationship, this usually happens when there is real life stress involved, and we are not 'at our best'.

    When something then goes to a point where you go: 'Do not do that!', it is a Te warning as to your coming close to changing the core or demanding a change in the core. It however does not mean the Fi-user doesn't see your point/isnt capable of seeing your point as to why you would wanna go that way. They usually will be open to a conversation about how to reach the goal (Te) using alternative routes that do not disturb Fi. Decisions as to whether or not Fi needs an internal review to accommodate the goal are entirely made by the Fi-user and the process often leads to brooding alone. It requires time, introspection and will often happen without you realizing, until you come across the change by accident, or they make it a point to inform you that *this* now has changed. Often they are more than willing to elaborate as to how that change came about when asked about it (after the facts, during they are still struggling with internal conflicts and opposing views!), but this does not often come up, so it rarely happens.
    I've experienced this!

    I just have a feeling that a lot of the so-called 'rules' are there for a reason. For example, I do have a moral code that I follow, which is I will treat others like how I wish them to treat me. I will try my best to restrain myself from doing hurtful things, even when I am angry or not feeling well, because I know it hurts when other people "take it out" on me. Sometimes when I am upset about something my INFP did and I try to explain to him why I was hurt, I feel like he thinks that my feelings are 'unreasonable'. That is until the same thing happens to him, and he realizes that, yes, it hurts, and that causes him to change his behaviors, so this 'external rule' becomes his 'personal rule' as well. To me, it just seems like a shortcut to just respect and accept how someone wants something a certain way without having to wait to experience it yourself.

    I don't know if it makes sense, but a lot of the time, I think these 'Fe rules' are just a collection of other people's 'personal values' made apparent and are not necessarily evil.

    Wow, this is looong.
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  2. #52
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow - several pages here since I went to bed!

    @Amargith - for me, it's not that I feel I need rules in all my interactions with people. However, when something goes wrong, it really helps me if I understand what the principle is behind it so that I don't offend in similar situations. It may not be as fine-tuned as is desireable, but it's somewhere to start from, especially if I truly can't see when I'm offending. As @21% said, it happens mostly when I'm not at my best, but it still creates stuff to unravel later that would be nice to avoid.

    I would liken it to you guiding a person who is blind. You can't possibly describe everything they might be seeing if they were a sighted person, but you might have to let them know if there is a set of stairs coming up or an unexpected corner. I realize that it's not the same as a person instinctually knowing that is there without you telling them, but I think it is a part of being with someone who has an opposite set of functions from yourself.

    @pinkgraffiti - I hesitated to write what I did lest it be mistaken. What I meant was, skylights was talking the other day about the Fe impulse to analyze every little bit of behaviour to figure out why the person was different than usual, what they were thinking etc. She felt it was kind of strange and maybe intrusive to constantly be trying to "solve the puzzle" of other people. What's it to them if someone was a little more animated today than yesterday and how is that even an interesting point to dwell on? I'm not saying that Fi users aren't interested in understanding people. I think they just go about it in a different manner. For Fe, behaviour usually contains an underlying meaning, out of which someone can construct meaning after observing many instances over time. In my experience, I don't think Fi attaches the same importance to those kinds of things, but is more tuned in to the generally resonance that the person produces in them and what it means. I don't know if this is true or not, but from the outside that's how it appears. I should have explained myself better.

  3. #53
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'm not always clear on delineating between Fi and Fe, but I will say that irl when someone hurts me I get really confused in the moment and withdraw or maintain the status quo of the moment until I can understand what happened. I then analyze any situation that confused me until I can come up with plausible explanations. If someone else has been violated, I will be more likely to go on the attack towards the perpetrator because as the natural observer, it is clearer to me what happened.

    I will also tend to mirror communication style, so I am much more aggressive towards aggressive people when a conflict must ensue. I feel like I can attack with Te if needed in certain situations - although it tends to be towards people claiming objectivity but being the equivalent of a hypocrite about it. Maybe it is because I hesitate to make the claim of objectivity because I see how difficult it is to achieve, and have a certain respect for it.
    I relate very much to all of this.

    I think I tend to get quiet and withdraw into myself if I'm hurt (however I may not even process the emotion as 'hurt', it would probably be more along the lines of confusion/anxiety/swirling feelings in my head such that I can't even think). I've never been one to lash out. I also can't recall a time where I've yelled at/shamed/criticized someone for doing X, Y, or Z. I don't think I emotionally react that way/interact with people that way. I think a lot of it is because as fia says, in the moment I really may not be able to make heads or tails of what's going on, what I think, how I want to react, how I need to react, what I think, maybe parts of what the person said are in fact true, maybe parts aren't... I need time to myself to figure that out.

    When things hit less close to home, and it's just me observing what's going on in the world around me, or reacting to decisions made in my company, etc, I can however have a tendency to 'rant' a bit more and more vocally disagree or say X decision was stupid, etc. For me there's just a huge difference between my relationships and how I process those (and this includes interactions with coworkers), and the less personal things, like work/impersonal decisions. Things tend to be gray in relationships for me, and more readily black and white in an organizational setting - the entity at large. I'm not able to articulate this well.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #54
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Darn it, as much as I identify with INTX and identify with what people write (especially the P's), I'm starting to identify as much with INFJ's. And I'm over 90% sure I'm an Fe user. So I might actually be INFJ. That would be cool. I like them. Maybe INTP's and INFJ's kind of become each other sometimes, because their judging functions are flipped. A bit off topic, but this tread has been very educational in the Fe regard. I could actually see (myself) being more into Fe than Ti. Although I still feel like a thinker.

    Really great responses, and thanks @Amargith and @fidelia for your detailed posts. I'm learning a lot about Fi too, and other people are making a lot more sense.

  5. #55
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    One thing's for sure tho: when your woman can write 10 pages long posts about her feelings: run for your life
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #56
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @cascadeco's post is how I process feelings too. It usually is either 1) confusion at the time (often because something isn't right but I need time to figure out if it's my state of mind at the moment or if it's something deeper that needs correcting, if it's something that I can change in myself, or if it's something that I need help with because the responsibility lies outside of my jurisdiction) or 2) I am more removed from the situation because the feeling of discord doesn't centre around my interaction with someone else. I am observing and may have opinions about the situation but don't feel as personally involved. In those cases, things are much more black and white than in the first because I am more objective and removed. I may care about the people involved, but it is easier to make a judgement call about it.

  7. #57
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Huh! My parents were actually very good about explaining why I shouldn't do things. It was probably one of the things they were best at, parenting-wise, from the beginning. (Maybe it's because they're Fe-users and had stories like yours, growing up, so tried to avoid being like their own parents.)

    What you're describing makes a lot of sense; I relate to it a lot, and I think it has to do with that same Fi/Ti similarity we've been talking about. In my case, it would go similarly to what you described. Childhood example (since that's where all my examples seem to be coming from): I did something wrong, and it was horrendously wrong because I feel abnormally bad about it, so I want them to know why I did it, so that they have all the information before they start to lecture me about the situation. Maybe I took some correct steps before going into the incorrect ones, so they won't have to lecture me as much or in quite the same way. Maybe they'll have advice for me on how to change my mindset about it, if it was my mindset that was the problem. Maybe they'll be able to validate me just a little, make me feel better, before the lecturing starts. Either way, from my viewing of it, being able to look inside my head and change the way I mentally approached the issue will keep me from making the same mistake again, as opposed to just lecturing me on the events (which I'd think were a given!), attributing all responsibility to me, and telling me not to do it again. Not to mention that there's always the possibility that I wasn't 100% in the wrong, because either my process wasn't 100% wrong, or my intentions were pure. Of course, that sort of grey area is probably not something that Fe tends towards; like fidelia was saying, Fi is more live-and-let-live, so Fi would probably be more willing to call someone 75% wrong and attribute responsibility to several different parties, instead of just the one and 100% wrong. (I dunno, I'm BSing a little here.)

    It feels a lot like how I imagine Ti feels: wanting the other party to have data that's as complete as possible so that they can make their feeling judgment based on it. So when I try to provide that data and then get shut down with "We don't care, what you did was wrong, don't do it again", it feels like you're on trial but the judge decided you were guilty before you even stepped into the courtroom, and willfully ignores all your testimony.


    Edit: I don't mean to be hating on Fe so much. And I don't mean for it to look like hating, because that's not how it feels in my head.
    I don't think you are hating on Fe. I find these kind of threads really interesting because I like to know what things look like from an outsider's perspective. If it's any comfort, one thing I've found is that the more the person is willing to take responsibility for their part in what went wrong, the more comfort that the Fe person is prepared to offer. Their lecturing is not an attempt to make you feel even more terrible than you already do, but rather is them being afraid that you don't understand where things went off the rails. Once they know that you know that, then they are going to focus on how to make you feel better. Again, it's not so much a matter of attributing blame (which to me seems kind of pointless after the fact), but rather trying to change the outcome for next time by figuring out where things fell apart and how it could be changed for next time.

    I realized as I was reading through here that both 21% and I feel much better (and more closure) when we have a problem with someone if we can both agree on what happened and why and then come up with a course of action to avoid it the next time. Then the uncomfortable feelings dissipate on their own. Without doing this, it feels like the situation is just left hanging and unresolved and the same thing could blow up again without warning. What I'm hearing from the Fi side is that their sense of closure is provided by being able to explore the feeling side of things first (in a safe environment) or have time to work it out on their own and then the course of action to take naturally becomes apparent. Maybe Fe and Fi start with the opposite ends of the problem.

    In the same way, Te wants to take action first and then discuss from there, while Ti wants the whole system figured out before embarking on any course of action. In that case, I don't like embarking on a course of action until I can see where it is going to end up and if it makes sense as a whole, rather than improvising as I go. Is there a correlate from a Fe/Fi perspective?

  8. #58
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I realized as I was reading through here that both 21% and I feel much better (and more closure) when we have a problem with someone if we can both agree on what happened and why and then come up with a course of action to avoid it the next time. Then the uncomfortable feelings dissipate on their own. Without doing this, it feels like the situation is just left hanging and unresolved and the same thing could blow up again without warning. What I'm hearing from the Fi side is that their sense of closure is provided by being able to explore the feeling side of things first (in a safe environment) or have time to work it out on their own and then the course of action to take naturally becomes apparent. Maybe Fe and Fi start with the opposite ends of the problem.

    In the same way, Te wants to take action first and then discuss from there, while Ti wants the whole system figured out before embarking on any course of action. In that case, I don't like embarking on a course of action until I can see where it is going to end up and if it makes sense as a whole, rather than improvising as I go. Is there a correlate from a Fe/Fi perspective?

    I dunno if that thought works. In essence, logically any extroverted function should be the one asserting the conflict and trieing to resolve it asap. From what I have experienced with Fi and Fe people tho, it is more often the Fe people who can leave things "hanging unresolved" and dwelling over things, while Fi people want stuff to be resolved immediantly. So to say Fe are the more skilled detached master manipulators who can talk about stuff when and if they want, while Fi wants to settle it here and now, so they dont feel injust.

    I think which thought is true depends on the character and position of function within a type.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #59
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that Fe users are the master communicators. I would say though that they have a harder time just figuring it out on their own. They need to check in more with the other party to figure out whether they are on the right track, being reasonable etc. It's not something they can just do on their own, or if they do, they need to make certain assumptions before making their decision. To me, Fe would prefer to get accurate information first. Maybe the difference though is what information they are after or what they place the most weight on. (Maybe this is just Ni flavoured Fe though?)

    Fi is more self-contained and doesn't seem to need to keep consulting in the same way to have the same kind of assurance of what to do. I agree that position of the function and also what other functions are in the mix affects the flavour of that function a lot and how someone uses it.

  10. #60
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I like to boil both functions dow down to the basis or foundation sometimes: for instance it is common knowledge on this site that Fe is some kind of society function while Fi deals with the true nature of things. We have worked hard and had a lot of threads to get rid of that stereotype and I think we did.
    So I like to think about it that Fi is a strong function able of introspection and understanding the self. Its downside is that people emrged in Fi can seem egoistic or shortminded like dom Ti people can. The strong side is that Fi people can way more often stand their ground in situations, talk about their feelings and explain them. Whereas this can be the FiTe aspect of it as well.
    Regarding Fe I dont think it places the utmost importance on looking cool in society. I rather think because of its 'carried out' nature or its extroverted nature, its like your heart carrieing outside of your personal shield. That makes it more vulnerable. The downside of this can be that Fe people fall victim to oppression or to the 'keeping up the groups harmony' scheme. Furthermore Fe people have a big problem to talk about their deepest of emotions, those that are really them and not the ones that came from the heart carried outside and being influenced on the outside. The strong side of Fe is that they can take on responsibility for the 'groups good mood' that they can be altruistic without hurting themselves and that they are good carers.

    I think the best example to see both functions at work is when they react to injustice. For example an Fi person and his Fe buddy are treaten badly at work by a third person. You can then maybe find the Fi retreating in a shell of coldness and letting the storm go by without a feeling, while the Fe person could take on the debate and jokingly disarm it or rationalize his own feelings so much that he can calmly resolve the conflict. Or you find the Fi person taking the fight and telling the third person like a female lion to go stick it up his ass. While the Fe user could dwell in self-pity and insecurity about what he just did wrong and why he didnt please his boss.

    The thing is, both Fi and Fe have the same capabilities in society and therefore they have the same might and power to do things. They just operate on different ways and motivations and while a Fi user could think he's detached from society because of his functions introverted nature, the Fe user can feel that he has lost grip on his personal reality so vastly that it aint fun no more. Still their capabilities of doing and moving things remain the same.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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