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  1. #21
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think there's truth in this.

    Interesting. I identify with Fe much more, but also with EJCC's post. I could talk about my feelings, it would just be rambling I wouldn't want to burden others with. And it takes me awhile to completely figure them out. So Fe probably. But I do a lot of Te stuff, almost obsessively (or is that Fe?). What would the Ti response be then? I can see in/justice as the feeling response from Ti-Fe, but how would they go about solving problems? I think an Fi dom/aux would focus on making the feelings right along with taking steps to solve the problem; Te-Fi would put priority the other way around, Fe-Ti would focus on wrongdoing and analyzing the wrongdoer, but I don't really know how Ti fits in otherwise. Maybe Ti doesn't solve people problems. haha Or they just try to find out what is logical in a situation? But that would depend on circumstances, Fe stuff, and then they would have to find out how to transfer this idealized logical response to the real world.

    A bit off topic maybe, but it's the natural progression.
    You may be overcomplicating a little. If your feeling is violated, you're going to react with feeling, regardless of whether you're Te/Fi or Fi/Te, for example. It's why I relate 100% perfectly with the NFPs who have posted here; even if NFPs are more likely to rely on their Fi, on a daily basis, when you're presented with a situation that can't be resolved with logic, then feeling is what you have to rely on.

    I legitimately don't know what the problem-solving process would be like for Fe users. I know that I was talking to @fidelia a bit ago about how some NFJs will go through a similar "make this emotion go away" process with anger, as opposed to with sadness, but she didn't go into details.

    Also @Lady X is right -- I hear a lot more of that sort of talk from my Fe family members and friends.
    e.g. if you asked an Fe person I know about a traumatic event in their childhood, they'd be quick to attribute the blame. It would be all about who the blame went to. That would be how they coped with the event, would be attributing blame. Whereas if you asked me, or one of my Fi friends, it would be less about whose fault it was, and more about the fallout from the event -- how it made me feel, why it made me feel that way, how I looked within myself to see why it made me upset (and here might be where I attribute blame, but I wouldn't be considering blame to be the most important thing). There would be a deeper conclusion at the end, than "It was this event or this person, end of story"; more like "I couldn't tolerate that event because I reacted a particular way; some of it was because of the person or the event, but if the same thing had happened to me now, I may have reacted differently."

    If I'm right, then I suppose you could phrase it like this: Lack of who/what/where/when/why information -- replaced by irrational Fe judgments and assumptions -- makes Ti stressed out, so Ti will try to create order out of chaos by contributing that information and providing closure that way. Whereas overwhelming, animalistic, value-based feeling, overwhelming your senses and your reason, is what stresses Te out, so Te will try to create order out of chaos by calming the feelings down, validating them so that they stay content and won't try to rise up again.

    Everyone, let me know if I'm leading @greenfairy in the wrong direction here.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #22
    Senior Member ms.behaving's Avatar
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    I don't agree with any of this and I don't feel like explaining myself. :/
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  3. #23
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You may be overcomplicating a little. If your feeling is violated, you're going to react with feeling, regardless of whether you're Te/Fi or Fi/Te, for example. It's why I relate 100% perfectly with the NFPs who have posted here; even if NFPs are more likely to rely on their Fi, on a daily basis, when you're presented with a situation that can't be resolved with logic, then feeling is what you have to rely on.

    I legitimately don't know what the problem-solving process would be like for Fe users. I know that I was talking to @fidelia a bit ago about how some NFJs will go through a similar "make this emotion go away" process with anger, as opposed to with sadness, but she didn't go into details.

    Also @Lady X is right -- I hear a lot more of that sort of talk from my Fe family members and friends.
    e.g. if you asked an Fe person I know about a traumatic event in their childhood, they'd be quick to attribute the blame. It would be all about who the blame went to. That would be how they coped with the event, would be attributing blame. Whereas if you asked me, or one of my Fi friends, it would be less about whose fault it was, and more about the fallout from the event -- how it made me feel, why it made me feel that way, how I looked within myself to see why it made me upset (and here might be where I attribute blame, but I wouldn't be considering blame to be the most important thing). There would be a deeper conclusion at the end, than "It was this event or this person, end of story"; more like "I couldn't tolerate that event because I reacted a particular way; some of it was because of the person or the event, but if the same thing had happened to me now, I may have reacted differently."

    If I'm right, then I suppose you could phrase it like this: Lack of who/what/where/when/why information -- replaced by irrational Fe judgments and assumptions -- makes Ti stressed out, so Ti will try to create order out of chaos by contributing that information and providing closure that way. Whereas overwhelming, animalistic, value-based feeling, overwhelming your senses and your reason, is what stresses Te out, so Te will try to create order out of chaos by calming the feelings down, validating them so that they stay content and won't try to rise up again.

    Everyone, let me know if I'm leading @greenfairy in the wrong direction here.
    I see what you mean.

    Although, one could argue that attributing blame is to some extent just immature behavior and doesn't solve problems. I used to do that all the time, but then I adopted a more Fi (as you explain it) approach as I got older and became more mature. It certainly wasn't my natural response. And if the functions are to some extent constant throughout life, that wouldn't make sense.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ms.behaving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Although, one could argue that attributing blame is to some extent just immature behavior and doesn't solve problems.
    This.
    - MB

  5. #25
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Well maybe I didn't use the right word. Replace the word "blame" with "responsibility"?
    All I meant was, everything happens for a reason, or because of a set of actions. Knowing what those actions were can be calming.

    Ah, nevermind. I'll just be sitting here and waiting for the Fe explanation from an Fe-user's mouth.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #26
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well maybe I didn't use the right word. Replace the word "blame" with "responsibility"?
    All I meant was, everything happens for a reason, or because of a set of actions. Knowing what those actions were can be calming.

    Ah, nevermind. I'll just be sitting here and waiting for the Fe explanation from an Fe-user's mouth.
    Oh that makes perfect sense! I'm all the time talking about responsibility. To me it's just the way things are: actions have consequences. Feelings are part of those consequences, but to me are just tools to assess the situation.

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC - I think that some of what you are talking about is true. Usually if Fe users talk bring up something that is bothering them, it is with the intent of either gathering information to give more context or else with the intent to change the situation in some way. The emphasis isn't really on one's own personal feelings, because those are only indicators of how everything is going, but not significant in and of themselves. The thought of expressing something without the intention of actually changing the situation was an extremely strange and incomprehensible one to me when I joined the site. I really had no idea that other people didn't all just use feelings as a barometer of a situation and nothing more.

    In general terms, I believe Fe users feel a responsibility to do all the adjusting of their own that they can before requesting someone else to. By that point, they may feel very frustrated that the other person seemingly is oblivious to all the adjusting they have already done to try to make it a workable outcome for both parties involved. Really the reasons why the person is acting as they are (other than helping to make more sense of the situation) or their feelings receive less emphasis than the outcome of their actions. This is one difference I have sometimes noticed between Fe and Fi users during conflict. The Fi explanation of their good intentions can seem like justifying something that resulted in badness when an apology and acknowledgement of the negative result would cut more ice.

    Fe users have a tendancy towards two downfalls. One is expecting that other people are thinking about balancing the feelings/inconvenience of all involved. They may feel there is one self-evident way that this should be accomplished, and also expect others to go to the same lengths that they do to take the feelings and wishes of others into account. Instead of voicing their concerns as they go, or making a direct request, they sometimes wait until they are frustrated and resentful already (often because of overaccommodating, sometimes even in ways that can be irritating or not appreciated by the other party!), which then can be perceived as them acting like a martyr when they don't need to.

    They also have a tendency (as with Te to Ti ears) to state their perceptions of the situation in terms that seem very definite and irrevocable to Fi ears, when in fact they are not. The fact is, like with Te ways of piecing together knowledge, they are more trying things on for size to see what sticks and what doesn't. New information may result in reconfiguring the information they are working with. To other Fe users, I think this is tacitly understood, and so doesn't come off as nearly so harsh and judgemental. Similarly, I often assume that Te statements are meant as a final conclusion, when in reality they are only meant as a working hypothesis and that seems so obvious to the Te user that they would feel strange about stating that out loud.

    Hence, in some ways, EJCC, I don't necessarily agree with your perceptions about what Fe behaviour may mean (eg martyr complex etc) because I think you are missing some of the mindset and other information that gives it context. However, I think that you are right about some of your observations of differences between Fe and Fi behaviour. Does that make sense?

    I identify with a lot of what fia said in her first paragraph.

  8. #28
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I guess the reason I am more likely to try to get anger to go away quickly is because I feel like it clouds my judgement. It makes enough emotional noise for me that I find it distracting and I don't trust my perception at all then. Sadness on the other hand is something that maybe I am more familiar with and can channel into something more useful and productive. For example, sorrow can produce a sort of empathy with others' pain and a better insight into their situation in a way that anger doesn't for me.

  9. #29
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah - and as far as assessing blame - I also prefer the word responsibility. If the intent is to bring about change, and the Fe user feels they have done whatever they possibly can to do so and more still needs to be done, they will try to get the other person to understand their responsibility in the situation (blame doesn't change the outcome, but taking responsibility does) so that the end goal can be reached! Of course that assumes that the other person will see the situation somewhat similarly through discussion, which of course is not always the case, and it can feel that the Fe user is somewhat self-righteous to act so prescriptively towards someone else. Fi in particular seems to be a pretty live and let live kind of function, while Fe tends to attach a label of good or bad to most actions (rather than just neutral).

    In theory, I understand why this is a problem, but it is still difficult to stifle the most natural way of going about solving problems that I can see! Of course, I am not very vocal about that sort of thing generally. Only with people I am very close to, or if I have been given the authority to make certain judgement calls about what will work best (eg establishing routines in a classroom as a teacher, etc). Mostly I don't like to speak up about my feelings unless I really can't continue interacting with the person unless it gets addressed.

  10. #30
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    It would probably depend on how well developed the function was. So, if you are inferior Fe or Fi, it would manifest itself in a far less productive way than if you were an Fe or Fi dom. As Fi tertiary, if my values are violated, I may respond in a strong way emotionally - indignation, frustration, hurt, etc. depending on the severity of the thing of course. It is pretty hard for me not to express what I am feeling - either directly with that person or with someone else. I try to channel the thing for productive purposes but it isn't always entirely possible.

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