Fe put-downs

[The Great One]

Is it just me or is it very common for Fe users to use what I like to call, "Fe put-downs". Now what I define as an Fe put-down, is basically a put-down that undermines the character of another person for doing something out of the ordinary, or something that is considered socially strange, or awkward. I've noticed that this is VERY common amongst the ESTP types more than any other types. I've also noticed that a lot of ESFJs do this as well, and even some ENTP's and ENFJs. What I have noticed though, is that it seems to be an Fe user thing. For instance, I don't ever see many Fi users doing it, except on some occasions I may see ESFP's doing it. I have never seen one ENFP or an INTJ do this in my entire life.

Now to be more clear as to what Fe put downs are, I will give you a couple of scenarios where Fe put downs might be used. For instance, let's say a man is wearing a very loud and flamboyant shirt like one that may have been worn by Will Smith in "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air". I've noticed that it's very common for Fe users to say stuff like, "Who wears those kinds of shirts anymore?" and "The 90's called, and they want their shirt back". Another example of this may involve a situation where you have a man who gets manicures from nail salons. I've noticed that it's not uncommon for Fe users to say stuff like, "What the hell? What kind of man gets his nails done? What are you gay or something?" The final scenario that I will use is like a woman who decides to go into the field of construction (a field mostly dominated by men). It would be common for Fe users to say things like, "What are you gonna be a construction worker for? That's a man's job."

Now you may be thinking to yourself, "What the hell are you talking about? Those are just typical insults. Everyone uses insults and you are just a dumb ass for writing a thread like this one." However, the key difference between regular put-downs, and Fe put-downs is that it involves a lack of the following of certain social standards that Fe presents in an individual. Fi users on the other hand tend to be so much more individualistic and kind of do their own thing in life, and say, "To hell with social standards". Anyway these are the patterns that I have noticed. Do you agree with my theory or am I incorrect?

 

[stalemate]

I work with the most ESFJ woman I can imagine existing, and she has done things like this to me several times. The one that comes to mind immediately is one day she looked at my feet while we were working and cracked up laughing and she was then like "oh sorry, i was distracted by those shoes" and just kept kind of halfway trying to work and halfway laughing at me.

She is actually someone that I generally like quite a lot, but man, those kind of "you will be ridiculed for not fitting into the box that society has built for you" moments are irritating.

 

[Giggly]

A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.

 

[acronach]

by default, i probably drive most of this kind of people away by just being myself. not enough conformity for their taste

 

[Giggly]

When someone says stuff like that to you just say "DON'T JUDGE ME!"

 

[Grublet]

Never in my life have I said anything like that.

 

[highlander]

VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

 

[Luv Deluxe]

Unless I was playfully teasing a friend with whom I know I can safely joke around, I can't imagine why I'd say anything like the examples above. I don't think I even have those thoughts to begin with. A few of my uncles and cousins derive great amusement from people-watching and laughing at anything they find unusual, but this bothers me a lot. I'm sure that if they didn't know me, they'd be making fun of me, too.

I do work with an ESFJ woman who has made snarky comments about my clothing and my boyfriend, which I find odd (as she claims to adore everything subversive and strange). However, I don't think this has to do with her personality type as much as it does her insecurity.

 

[21%]

VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.

Could you give better examples of this? I'm really interested. The examples in the OP, to me, just sound like "people being mean" (in a playful way to disguise their insecurity). Are these deemed "Fe" only because they are judging from the 'social norm'?

 

[Amargith]

I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

If the other person however is an Fe-tard, or less focused on the Fe-perspective, they might not really realise that they are being unintentionally humorous for those with an Fe-perspective. Miscommunication is likely to ensue.

Kind of like how T-types insult each other to express affection, or pick at each others slips and use it as 'proof' that the other isnt T or isnt intelligent, while their intelligence is clear to anyone around?

 

[1487610420]

Why would anyone start such a thread? Everyone knows Fe corrupts ppl into being self rigtheous condescending bigots.

 

[Southern Kross]

I don't know if it's Fe related. Just last night I was watching two ESTJs trade insults over several hours over what each were wearing. Although in this context it was meant as friendly ribbing and no real offence was meant.

 

[Eric B]

The OP's examples remind me more of the ISTJ's I grew up around, so if that is Fe at all (since the FJ's don't seem to be identifying with it), then it might be Trickster, which would try to double bind the person they are criticizing, with the prospect of being weird, or "gay", which from a traditional homophobic perspective is a kind of "weird".
Si figures in this as well, and the offending behavior likely somehow threatens their vulnerable tertiary Fi sense of ethics. (And for an ESFP, it would be Witch, which would be a critical attack for when the "parental" authority of their aux. Fi is negated, but I don't think they would really bother with the types of examples the OP gave).

INTJ and ENFP would work just like ISTJ and ESFP, respectively (Fe in the same archetypal position), but I think with them, it is being N that allows them to accept things being out of the norm more, so that's probably why you never heard them doing it.

If not, then this might not always be something connected with type or functions.

 

[Ginkgo]

The best insults are made indirectly for the insulted to unravel in their own special way.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.

Well said, Giggly. I actually think anyone is capable of doing that. For my own self I don't care if the put-down is because of maintaining a tradition or cultural behavior or if it is to maintain a personal ego or viewpoint, it hurts the same.

I think the most horrible put-down is to have someone judge you with assumptions that are made up in their head. This is especially upsetting if there is a serious situation involved. When someone does this you know communication has been halted because they are using you as a proxy for something else which is why they have such a large set of assumptions. I once had a man getting uncomfortable fixated on me at work trying to get my home number, showing a lack of emotional regulation in his interactions, and having sexual overtones in his words and body language. I reported some of the incidents and one of the secretaries took me aside and verbally attacked me. She has smiled and seemed friendly since, but I don't forgive her because she hasn't apologized. People online have sometimes judged me with false assumptions and I remember that as well.

If people want to use Sensors as the stereotype of maintaining tradition and putting people down who fall outside the norm, then iNuitives who think they "just know" shit about you because of magical insight are also capable of quite unpleasant put-downs.

 

[highlander]

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

 

[Giggly]

Why would anyone start such a thread? Everyone knows Fe corrupts ppl into being self rigtheous condescending bigots.

Duh!

 

[highlander]

This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.

I have only recently started noticing the potential connection between Te and this type of behavior. Interesting observation.

I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

Also good points. The bolded - is it true? Maybe it is.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

The bolded - is it true? Maybe it is.

Well it seems to me a lot of times, when it comes up, Fe’ers kinda react like “But it’s only clearly that person’s opinion” when Fe ‘direction’ is pointed out. The menacing aspect of it tends to evade us (maybe not completely, but generally moreso). When I sense a Fe’er getting wound up (irl) my experience is usually to think something “Whatever. To each, his own.” And I’m not saying this is universal, I’m just saying I’ve noticed a trend in Fe’ers having a more indifferent reaction. It’s not like the ‘direction’ sways me in one direction or another, but it’s kind of neither here nor there to me. I think Fi’ers get offended on some deeper level by it though.

eta, to clarify:

If someone were to tell me, “You should wear (some specific thing) to (some specific event) because it’s an important event to those attending, and it’s selfish and rude break that rule.” My reaction would be to consider whether there’s any valid point in what they’re saying- I’ll take the value into consideration and think “Pfft. Whatever.” to the rest of it. It seems to me like Fi’ers get so offended by the ‘selfish and rude’ part that it makes the whole comment too distracting to consider whether or not there’s any value/use in it.

I imagine it sounds like trying to exert control over others through insults? Because that’s what Te cavemen sound like to me. Rather than ideas commanding respect through their own merit, it’s like they throw insults to attempt to command that respect. It’s an amazing fail. And it's so distracting it's hard not to dismiss everything they say. [More eta: 'logically' I've come to realize they're probably throwing insults to vent frustration rather than as an attempt to MAKE me 'think something which is clearly imperfect'.....but I still find it too distracting to interact with well.]