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Thread: Fe put-downs

  1. #101
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    Dec 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

    If the other person however is an Fe-tard, or less focused on the Fe-perspective, they might not really realise that they are being unintentionally humorous for those with an Fe-perspective. Miscommunication is likely to ensue.

    Kind of like how T-types insult each other to express affection, or pick at each others slips and use it as 'proof' that the other isnt T or isnt intelligent, while their intelligence is clear to anyone around?
    I just noticed this. I dont see that in Fe. Fe would care to much about image to find it humerous. I get a kick out of it when people do things like that and I may even joke or play with it. I dont usually care much about image so I guess I assume others dont care as much either If they respond strongly to the joking I will stop.

    Being dominant T I like to joke about stuff and be a smart ass. I have no desire to prove someone isnt intelligent, nor do I think that because you dont know one thing in a certain area that you are stupid or less intelligent. I just like to poke at slip ups and people can feel free to poke at mine. The TP types I know dont express affection in that manner, but the TJ types I know do.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  2. #102


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, I agree with this in that 'beautiful little star' is (unfortunately) likely going to go in one ear and out the other. I agree with the premise of the 'beautiful little star' precept- that ideally education SHOULD make kids tap into their inner beautiful little star- but it's put in a language that isn't palatable to the Fe school system borg. I'd word it differently to make things more palatable, to try to explain how what I immediately want IS in fact part of the 'education' goal that benefits everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers Fi and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.
    ^^I think this may be something very important to note as a point of difference. It sounds corny and silly, but the notion of another possessing an amazing, internal beauty is very important in how I perceive and understand others.

    When I moved little INTJ to the second school, his teacher, an esfp, gave me a homework assignment. "In a million words or less, in english or spanish, tell me all the wonderful things about your child. Tell me what they like and how I can help them learn". By understanding all the things the children value and things we value in the children, she is really expressing acceptance of those values. The message is that even though you like different things from me and we wont always agree, I accept you as being of worth and value-by asking and acknowledging the individual Fi values you hold.

    I think maybe the parallel occurs in Fe/Ti, but perhaps is phrased as what do you think about this, what are your ideas about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think most schools are typically just insanely Je heavy. There’s a really (really) stifling one-size-fits-all mentality that trickles down from the top and drowns out any amount of thinking or feeling on an individual level (no one is special! ). It’s a whole other topic, but in short, I think most schools are a perfect place to find examples of Je gone wrong.

    I’m going to guess the woman didn’t even really hear the question as “Can I sit with my son?” so much as she heard “Is it okay for parents to sit with their children while their children eat?” I’m not sure how you asked- whether or not you included something like “because it’s the first day of school, he’s feeling overwhelmed and I think it’s really important for his first impression of school experience to be a positive one- I think that sitting with him while he eats will go a long way in helping him feel less overwhelmed, and the faster we can achieve him feeling secure in this environment the better”- but immediate variables aren’t really as obvious to Je’ers as they are to Ji’ers. The details that immediately come up for Je are more long-term variables; she may have felt like she was being asked if it’s okay to set a precedent of parents being able to sit with their children while they’re children eat (and so- even though there were empty tables there- it’s possible the first ‘detail’ she accessed was having previously had the problem of there not being enough seats because of parents staying with their children, and to stop that from happening again her focus was on making sure parents don’t do it in the first place). Though I do agree that a large part of the problem is a messed up hierarchy of ‘authority’ and bizarre little power games (I agree with what you said, and I’ve long used L’Engle’s stories to describe what I hate most about public education myself), part of it also is being oblivious to immediate details because the focus is on preventing problems experienced before.

    In general, a big problem I’ve had with schools is that any amount of that^ kind of explaining (if they even let you say that much in the first place without cutting you off) goes nowhere- like you just get a blank expression, and they repeat what they said in the first place. And the problem often extends beyond the single person, like the people enforcing certain rules are rarely the ones who get any say in deciding what they are. With the example in the quote above (from yesterday), in that situation I can see myself trying to explain (in the way I just mentioned) and if that doesn’t work then I’d be put off but it wouldn’t really hurt my feelings; I’d just think she was a mindless drone and be secretly annoyed my child had to treat this woman like ‘authority’ [though if she looked stressed- instead of giving me a big weird (subtext:fake) smile- I wouldn’t assume it’s thoughtlessness so much as she just can’t handle taking immediate variables into account at the moment because there’s too much pressure for her to get things done a certain way and I’d feel some compassion for her…. but I’d also feel contempt for the system that doesn’t allow for any individuality of any kind].

    [B]Orobas-^^This is extremely helpful to understand!!! Especially the part about the immediate variable. very helpful and helps me understand her perspective/B]

    I’m not really sure how to describe what happens when dealing with Te’ers. It’s not exactly feeling invalidated. Hopefully I’ll find time today to get back to that. [And thanks for that explanation of what it feels like to react to Fe!]

    eta: forgot to mention! I bolded "please fill in the precise word" because I thought it was funny. *high fives for effective cross type communication* (and successfully appealing to Ti.)


    more eta:
    I think that the projection error I tend to make myself with Te’ers is that to dismiss someone else’s pov outright- without putting much thought into what parts could be true and/or why certain aspects of what they said don’t work for me- I’d have to have absolutely no regard for that person’s judgment. In Z Buck’s universe, the extent to which someone tries to understand where another person is coming from is the extent to which they respect the other person’s judgment.

    Orobas-how would an individual have an answer refined to be particular to them? This may be a weird way to all answers NEED to be particular to an individual-or should the answer provided just be expressed in a way that allows room for people to request/implement/customize/modify to fit their particular needs? I think Fi may feel the same sort of projection with Fe-mostly we dont disagree, but we respect the right of individuals to differ. so it leaves no more for that indidivual adaptation.

    So it’s like they might as well flat out be saying “You’re ideas don’t even BEGIN to be important as mine, and not even because of their inherent strength but because I am just inherently more important! Anything I say (no matter how stupid it is) should be given more weight! EVERYONE SHOULD BOW DOWN TO ME! All I need to do to prove this is to act like a caveman and get aggressive with insults!”

    Orobas-I am having issues understanding how respect and ideas interrelate-what does respect mean to you, how does it relate to how you perceive yourself? In a more global system of does respect tie into concepts of self-esteem and how does respecting others help them integrate into the social system? (sort of a tangent, but a very blind spot for me )

    And I wouldn’t say it hurts my feelings, but rather feels like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and makes it difficult to think. When Fe gets out of control in someone, it *sorta* has the same affect- but I can roll my eyes at it and dismiss it as thoughtlessness. It really is like “Pfft. Whatever.” But with Te, it’s overwhelming. And utterly confounding/stunning because I need things to make sense. It’s like watching someone running over the finish line last and then jumping up and down in excitement because they won- and it seems like the only reason others go along with it is because they get angry and abusive with language when you try to explain how they didn’t actually win. [In case it needs mentioning- that’s Te at its worst, and I do realize it’s coming from the pov of someone who doesn’t ‘get’ Te goals.]

    I can deal with the blank expression- when the immediate details I’m trying to point out don’t seem to apply to the situation (because they’re focus on long-term details, which is why it seems to me like they’re just repeating the same thing over and over)- because then it’s just a matter of figuring out how to marry the two extremes for the sake of coming up with the best resolution (and really- I think this is often ideal, as Ti’ers can lose sight of long term details as easily as Te’ers can lose sight of immediate details, so a marriage of the two can give the most well rounded solution). I’m fairly certain I must draw the equivalent blank Fe expression at not understanding how Fi details are supposed to be relevant, at times. But when a Te’er aggressively refuses any immediate details, the position they’re pushing is full of obvious flaws but they refuse to listen to anything and they’re getting so angry at someone else even trying to have a say that they mindlessly throw insults- that’s when it starts feeling like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and it gets difficult to think. I could always tell when my eNTJ was getting near this point. Sometimes he was really good about being patient and listening- but as soon as he started turning pale and furrowing his eyebrows I knew I was getting into Te caveman territory and I’d have to back off or he’d just start throwing insults.

    I was really hoping to hear more specific example in this thread of the Fe equivalent. The explanation highlander gave was helpful- but the problem is that it’s vague and I could come up with specific examples on both ends of the spectrum which seem to fit that description (where a Fi’er perceives it that way because they aren’t willing to meet halfway- but also I can see it applying to a Fe’er being a jerk….I’d need to hear a specific dialogue example).

    The examples in the op almost seem more like playfulness being taken the wrong way (‘the eighties called and they want their pink polo shirt back’), but it really depends on the context. Sometimes Fe’ers say mean things to vent and deny that’s what’s going on (I think ENTPs are the worst at this, but anyway).
    Quote Originally Posted by ms.behaving View Post
    I know stress isn't pretty on Fe. I've learned when Fe becomes a maniac, it would mean a lot if you would just say, "I'm sorry." Or say something that indicates you care about what happened.
    From here how do you then reframe the issue in a way that isnt offense to the enfj but does allow the conversation to continue to find a resolution?

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