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  1. #61
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    You're welcome.
    It happens to be true!
    And what good is a theory which encourages you to ignore your individual complexity in order to over-identify with narrow aspects of yourself and others?
    Very true, I myself never identified with any descriptions of any of the types even when I first discovered it. However it was interesting reading Jung and going more in-depth.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You're right, I do. But being ambiguous doesn't mean a type can't mostly fit; that's what I mean. It fits me well enough to use it for practical purposes, but not perfectly, hence not limiting myself to it. If I'm INXP, or INTX, or INXX, that still means I act like INTP some of the time, and if I feel this is my center at this time in my life (however indefinite a center it is), I think people should respect that. That's my opinion on types- people fluctuate. Being an unorthodox INTP really means I'm INTP+INTJ+INFP+INFJ+ENFP+ENTP. So I am, but I'm not. It depends on how you look at typology. I thought it would be obvious to most people that type is sort of fluid, but apparently not.

    The point of the system is to give a general sense of a personas personality. It's already vague and not INTPs will be the same. But I don't see any point if you insist that you are 3/8 of the whole system.

    INTPs have Fi but it not dominant.

    I think in regards to your type people just don't see the NT that you are instant that you have. And when you defend it it is an a very NF style.

  3. #63
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    INTPs have Fi but it not dominant.
    lies, INTPs have F, but its attitude(
    The readiness of the psyche to act or react in a certain way, based on an underlying psychological orientation. (See also adaptation, type and typology.)


    From a great number of existing or possible attitudes I have singled out four; those, namely, that are primarily oriented by the four basic psychological functions: thinking, feeling, sensation, intuition. When any of these attitudes is habitual, thus setting a definite stamp on the character of an individual, I speak of a psychological type. These function-types, which one can call the thinking, feeling, sen-sation, and intuitive types, may be divided into two classes . . . the rational and the irrational. . . . A further division into two classes is permitted by the predominant trend of the movement of libido, namely introversion and extraversion.[Ibid., par. 835.]

    The whole psychology of an individual even in its most fundamental features is oriented in accordance with his habitual attitude. . . . [which is] a resultant of all the factors that exert a decisive influence on the psyche, such as innate disposition, environmental influences, experience of life, insights and convictions gained through differentiation, collective views, etc. . . .At bottom, attitude is an individual phenomenon that eludes scientific investigation. In actual experience, however, certain typical attitudes can be distinguished . . . . When a function habitually predominates, a typical attitude is produced. . . . There is thus a typical thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuitive attitude.[Ibid., pars. 690f.]

    Adaptation to one’s environment requires an appropriate attitude. But due to changing circumstances, no one attitude is permanently suitable. When a particular attitude is no longer appropriate, whether to internal or external reality, the stage is set for psychological difficulties (e.g., an outbreak of neurosis).

    For example, a feeling-attitude that seeks to fulfil the demands of reality by means of empathy may easily encounter a situation that can only be solved through thinking. In this case the feeling-attitude breaks down and the progression of libido also ceases. The vital feeling that was present before disappears, and in its place the psychic value of certain conscious contents increases in an unpleasant way; subjective contents and reactions press to the fore and the situation becomes full of affect and ripe for explosions.["On Psychic Energy," CW 8, par. 61.]

    The tension leads to conflict, the conflict leads to attempts at mutual repression, and if one of the opposing forces is successfully repressed a dissociation ensues, a splitting of the personality, or disunion with oneself.[Ibid.]
    Attitude (Einstellung)

    This concept is a relatively recent acquisition to psychology. It originated with Müller and Schumann [14]. Whereas Kulpe [15] defines attitude as a predisposition of the sensory or motor centres to a definite stimulation or persistent impulse, Ebbinghaus [16] conceives it in a wider sense as a phenomenon of exercise, introducing an air of the customary into the individual act which deviates from the customary. Our use of the concept proceeds, from Ebbinghaus' conception of attitude. For us, attitude is a readiness of the psyche to act or to react in a certain direction. It is precisely for the psychology of complex psychic phenomena that the concept is so important, since it provides an expression for that peculiar psychological phenomenon wherein we find certain stimuli exercising a powerful effect on one occasion, while their effect is either weak or wholly absent on another. To have a certain attitude means to be ready for something definite, even though this definite something is unconscious, since having an attitude is synonymous with an a priori direction towards a definite thing, whether this be present in consciousness or not. The state of readiness, which I conceive attitude to be, always consists in the presence of a certain subjective constellation, a definite combination of psychic factors or contents, which will either determine action in this or that definite direction, or will comprehend an external stimulus in this or that definite way. Active apperception (q.v.) is impossible without an attitude. An attitude always has an objective; this can be either con-scious or unconscious, since in the act of apperceiving a new content a prepared combination of contents unfailingly emphasizes those qualities or motives which appear to belong to the subjective content Hence a selection or judgment takes place which excludes the irrelevant. As to what is, and what is not, relevant is decided by the already orientated combination or constellation of contents. Whether the attitude's objective be conscious or unconscious is immaterial to its selective effect, since the choice is already given a priori through the attitude, and therefore follows automatically. It is useful, however, to distinguish between conscious and unconscious, since the presence of two attitudes is extremely frequent, the one conscious and the other unconscious. Which means to say that the conscious has a preparedness of contents different from that of the unconscious. This duality of attitude is particularly evident in neurosis.

    There is a certain kinship between the concept of attitude and the apperception concept of Wundt, though with this difference, that the idea of apperception includes the process of relating the already prepared content toˆthe new content to be apperceived, while the concept of attitude relates exclusively to the subjectively prepared content. Apperception is, as it were, the bridge which connects the already present and prepared content with the new content, the attitude being, in a sense, the end-pier or abutment of the bridge upon the one bank, while the new content represents the abutment upon the other bank. Attitude signifies an expectation, an expectation always operates selectively—it gives direction. The presence of a strongly toned content in the field of consciousness forms (sometimes together with other contents) a certain constellation which is synonymous with a definite attitude, because such a conscious content favours the perception and apperception of everything similar, and inhibits the dissimilar. It creates an attitude corresponding with it This automatic phenomenon is an essential cause of the onesidedness of conscious orientation. It would lead to a complete loss of equilibrium if there were no self-regulating, compensatory (q.v.) function in the psyche to correct the conscious attitude. Thus in this sense the duality of the attitude is a normal phenomenon, which plays 'a disturbing rôle only when conscious one-sidedness becomes excessive.

    As ordinary attention, the attitude can be either a relatively unimportant subsidiary phenomenon or a general principle determining the whole psyche. From disposition, environmental influence, education, general experience, or conviction a constellation of contents may be habitually present, continually moulding a certain attitude which may operate even down to the most minute details of life. Every man who has a special sense of the unpleasant side of life will naturally have an attitude of constant readiness for the disagreeable. This excessive conscious attitude is counterbalanced by an unconscious attitude for pleasure. The oppressed individual has a conscious attitude that always anticipates oppression; he selects this factor in experience; everywhere he scents it out; and in so doing his unconscious attitude makes for power and superiority. The total psychology of the individual even in its various basic characters is orientated by the nature of his habitual attitude. In spite of the fact that general psychological laws are operative in every individual, they cannot be said to be characteristic of the individual, since the nature of their operation varies completely in accordance with the nature of the general attitude. The general attitude is always a resultant of all the factors that can have an essential influence upon the psyche, such as inborn disposition, education, milieu-influences, experience of life, insight and convictions gained through differentiation (q.v.), collective ideas, etc. Without the absolutely fundamental importance of attitude, there would be no question of the existence of an individual psychology. But the general attitude effects such immense displacements of energy, and so modifies the relations between individual functions, that resultants are produced which frequently bring the validity of general psychological laws into question. In spite of the fact, for instance, that a certain measure of activity is held to be indispensable for the sexual function both on physiological and psychological grounds, individuals certainly exist who, without injury to themselves, i.e. without pathological phenomena and without any demonstrable restriction of productive power, can, to a very great extent, dispense with it; while, in other cases, quite insignificant deprivations or disturbances in this region may involve very considerable general consequences. How potent individual differences can be is seen perhaps most clearly in questions of likes and dislikes. Here practically all rules go by the board. What is there, in the last resort, which has not at one time given man pleasure, while at another has caused him pain? Every instinct, every function can be subordinated to other instincts and functions and act as a servant. The ego or power-instinct can make sexuality its serviceable subject, or sexuality make use of the ego. Thinking may over-run everything else, or feeling swallow up thinking and sensation, all in obedience to the attitude.

    Au fond, the attitude is an individual phenomenon and is inaccessible to the scientific method of approach. In actual experience, however, certain attitude-types can be discriminated in so far as certain psychic functions can also be differentiated. When a function habitually predominates, a typical attitude is thereby produced. In accordance with the nature of the differentiated function, constellations of contents take place which create a corresponding attitude. Thus there exist a typical thinking, a feeling, a sensational, and an intuitive attitude. Besides these purely psychological attitude-types, whose number might possibly be increased, there are also social types, namely, those for whom a collective idea expresses the brand. They are characterized by the various '-isms'. These collective attitudes are, at all events, very important in certain cases, even outweighing in significance the purely individual attitude.
    ) is extraverted.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #64
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    That totally needs spoiler tags.

    And not just because it's dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #65
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That totally needs spoiler tags.

    And not just because it's dumb.
    jung > mbti/whateverrandoms
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #66
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    jung > mbti/whateverrandoms
    Jung doesn't know how to express himself clearly, it seems, and it's amazing mbti came out of all of that rambling.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #67
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Jung doesn't know how to express himself clearly, it seems, and it's amazing mbti came out of all of that rambling.
    in order to express complicated things, you need complicated words or you are not expressing the whole thing in its whole glory. MBTI/whatevers lose 90% of the essentials, because they are typology for dummies, simplified to few simple words.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #68
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    in order to express complicated things, you need complicated words or you are not expressing the whole thing in its whole glory. MBTI/whatevers lose 90% of the essentials, because they are typology for dummies, simplified to few simple words.
    Yeah, but that's assuming what he's talking about is legitimate and actually reflects reality. Based on a few of the blips that you quoted, I have my doubts.

    Edit: Also, he still rambles. Rambling is not necessary to convey complicated ideas.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #69
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah, but that's assuming what he's talking about is legitimate and actually reflects reality. Based on a few of the blips that you quoted, I have my doubts.

    Edit: Also, he still rambles. Rambling is not necessary to convey complicated ideas.
    i find that his work reflects the reality way better than MBTI/whatevers do. why do you have your doubts?

    i dont see rambling, i see covering the issue from multiple angles in order to cover all(or more) aspects of it
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #70
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i find that his work reflects the reality way better than MBTI/whatevers do. why do you have your doubts?
    Namely, that many of his statements are probably only true (to the extent he states they manifest) based on extreme types. So, it diminishes the application to real-world personalities.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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