Keirsey Role Variant Supremacy

[RaptorWizard]

In my opinion David Keirsey in his titles for each of his role variants clearly favored the NTs over all of the other temperaments and hence I think he was a supremecist because pretty much everybody would rather be a Mastermind or an Inventor rather than a Supervisor or a Provider. Some of his titles clearly sound better than others. Perhaps they should be renamed more fairly.

Keirsey's Role Variant Titles for each type with = for okay, - for underrated, and + for overrated:
ENFJ = Teacher (okay)
INFJ - Counselor (could be Sage or Prophet)
ENFP = Champion (okay)
INFP - Healer (could be Mystic or Spiritualist)
ENTJ + Fieldmarshal (wow a Glorious Leader)
INTJ + Mastermind (wow a Glorious Strategist)
ENTP + Inventor (wow a Grand Creator)
INTP + Architect (wow a Grand Designer)
ESTJ - Supervisor (could be Executive or Director)
ISTJ - Inspector (could be Actuary or Logician)
ESFJ - Provider (could be Shepherd or Benefactor)
ISFJ - Protector (could be Knight or Crusader)
ESTP - Promoter (could be Entrepreneur or Manager)
ISTP = Crafter (okay)
ESFP - Performer (could be Entertainer or Professional)
ISFP = Composer (okay)

 

[Riva]

Keirsey really did go down on his knees for the NTs. he probably could be blamed for the N superiority that exist in some descriptions and forums. Frankly I believe that giving names was a horrible idea to begin with.

 

[skylights]

I like the two-part descriptors (does anyone know who authored these?) better. They're harder to remember, but if you can remember them, they're useful.

ISTJ Planner Inspector	ISFJ Protector Supporter	INFJ Foreseer Developer	INTJ Conceptualizer Director
ISTP Anaylzer Operator	ISFP Composer Producer	INFP Harmonizer Clarifier	INTP Designer Theorist
ESTP Promoter Executor	ESFP Motivator Presenter	ENFP Discoverer Advocate	ENTP Explorer Inventor
ESTJ Implementer Supervisor	ESFJ Facilitator Caretaker	ENFJ Envisioner Mentor	ENTJ Strategist Mobilizer

Tables!

I agree that the Keirsey ones are slanted... I also do not really fully agree with the NT/NF and SJ/SP divisions. I understand it theoretically, but I'm not sure they really play out. I think we could easily have NJ Envisioners, NP Conceptualists, SF Humanists and ST Tacticians. Or whatever better names someone could come up with.

 

[RaptorWizard]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] I believe it was Dario Nardi who invented those titles you posted but idk.

 

[wolfy]

skylights I believe it was Dario Nardi who invented those titles you posted but idk.

Berens and Nardi or one of them. I like those names better than Keirsey ones, names are pretty dumb but I have to admit, Beren's names helped me imagine what types actually produce.

 

[Eric B]

I like Interaction Style / temperament combinations (and classic temperament, of course):

Type	Keirsey	Berens	Galen
ISTJ	Contender Guardian	Chart the Courseâ„¢ Stabilizerâ„¢	Melancholy Melancholy
ISFJ	Responder Guardian	Behind the Scenesâ„¢ Stabilizerâ„¢	Phlegmatic Melancholy
INFJ	Contender Idealist	Chart the Courseâ„¢ Catalystâ„¢	Melancholy Phlegmatic
INTJ	Contender Rational	Chart the Courseâ„¢ Theoristâ„¢	Melancholy Choleric
ISTP	Contender Artisan	Chart the Courseâ„¢ Improviserâ„¢	Melancholy Sanguine
ISFP	Responder Artisan	Behind the Scenesâ„¢ Improviserâ„¢	Phlegmatic Sanguine
INFP	Responder Idealist	Behind the Scenesâ„¢ Catalystâ„¢	Phlegmatic Phlegmatic
INTP	Responder Rational	Behind the Scenesâ„¢ Theoristâ„¢	Phlegmatic Choleric
ESTP	Initiator Artisan	In Chargeâ„¢ Improviserâ„¢	Choleric Sanguine
ESFP	Coworker Artisan	Get Things Goingâ„¢ Improviserâ„¢	Sanguine Sanguine
ENFP	Coworker Idealist	Get Things Goingâ„¢ Catalystâ„¢	Sanguine Phlegmatic
ENTP	Coworker Rational	Get Things Goingâ„¢ Theoristâ„¢	Sanguine Choleric
ESTJ	Initiator Guardian	In Chargeâ„¢ Stabilizerâ„¢	Choleric Melancholy
ESFJ	Coworker Guardian	Get Things Goingâ„¢ Stabilizerâ„¢	Sanguine Melancholy
ENFJ	Initiator Idealist	In Chargeâ„¢ Catalystâ„¢	Choleric Phlegmatic
ENTJ	Initiator Rational	In Chargeâ„¢ Theoristâ„¢	Choleric Choleric

I think those are informative of what they types are like. All you have to understand are eight different type group profiles (the four temperaments and four Interaction Styles), and then put them together.
I wonder why neither Keirsey nor Berens simply used those (and since all of Berens' type names are two part, they sort of have a similar ring). Now, Keirsey's latest book (in which he's dropped the type codes), he has a whole bunch of new names, combining the skills set (Diplomatic, Strategic, Tactical, Logistical) with the interaction role, in addition to the single word names.

 

[RaptorWizard]

INTJ - The Mastermind Personality Type.

 

[Nicki]

He really was getting off on INTJs. (Seriously? Masterminds?)

 

[Coriolis]

He really was getting off on INTJs. (Seriously? Masterminds?)

As an INTJ, even I don't like that title. Too grandiose, and overshadows the reality of how/who we are. Some author calls us "scientists", which I much prefer.

 

[Entropic]

In my opinion David Keirsey in his titles for each of his role variants clearly favored the NTs over all of the other temperaments and hence I think he was a supremecist because pretty much everybody would rather be a Mastermind or an Inventor rather than a Supervisor or a Provider. Some of his titles clearly sound better than others. Perhaps they should be renamed more fairly.

Keirsey's Role Variant Titles for each type with = for okay, - for underrated, and + for overrated:
ENFJ = Teacher (okay)
INFJ - Counselor (could be Sage or Prophet)
ENFP = Champion (okay)
INFP - Healer (could be Mystic or Spiritualist)
ENTJ + Fieldmarshal (wow a Glorious Leader)
INTJ + Mastermind (wow a Glorious Strategist)
ENTP + Inventor (wow a Grand Creator)
INTP + Architect (wow a Grand Designer)
ESTJ - Supervisor (could be Executive or Director)
ISTJ - Inspector (could be Actuary or Logician)
ESFJ - Provider (could be Shepherd or Benefactor)
ISFJ - Protector (could be Knight or Crusader)
ESTP - Promoter (could be Entrepreneur or Manager)
ISTP = Crafter (okay)
ESFP - Performer (could be Entertainer or Professional)
ISFP = Composer (okay)

The real question is, why have subtitles at all that are clearly misleading anyway since type does not define the role or interests for a person or what function they play in society? Like, why the fuck would I want to see myself as a healer? I'm a destroyer, not a healer (5w4 mindset with strong connection to 8 + fix). Good thing I'm an INTP in Keirsey land. At least architect is a title I can accept.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

We should name each type after DnD classes, and make all of the SJs Clerical classes and SP Druids.

Nobody would want to be an NT or NF for now on.

 

[Thalassa]

He really was getting off on INTJs. (Seriously? Masterminds?)

He has a real affection for SPs. The way a dog trainer has affection for dogs. His son, not so much, he seems pretty aggravated by SP shenanigans on the Keirsey forum. The biggest trouble makers on that forum are Keirsey SPs, and through the Keirsey perspective, this would be the truth, that Artisans are the ones shaking things up, where as on a lot of more Jungian-oriented forums you see a lot of people saying ENxPs do this, and Sensors are hardly ever on forums, and all sorts of garbage like that, that I don't always necessarily believe.

It's really a matter of which theory you follow, though, like I think you could be a different type in different theories.

I am. A Socionics ESFp is way too subdued and Gamma to fit the Keirsey stereotype of the really outgoing Sanguine Sanguine, spraying glitter everywhere with YOLO.

Keirsey was really excited by mythology, and more than anything, I appreciate his charts of the temperament, like language orientation and so forth.

I think his description of SJs, for example though, is too specific to time, place, culture, generation, etc.

That's why overall I do tend to go with Jung.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh also, just to chime in here, I do like his dark side descriptions. I am very much somewhere between the ESFP Binger and ISFP Derelict...overspending or overeating, manic impulsive behavior (can also show up as sex, gambling, drugs, alcohol in other people), really being overall too reckless. I lost my driver's license by 20 through speeding tickets alone, no drunk driving or anything, mang. And the Derelict is like someone so depressed they indulge in self-neglect, in worst case scenario becoming homeless, and I am no stranger to drifting though I've never chosen homelessness.

 

[Entropic]

It's really a matter of which theory you follow, though, like I think you could be a different type in different theories.

I am. A Socionics ESFp is way too subdued and Gamma to fit the Keirsey stereotype of the really outgoing Sanguine Sanguine, spraying glitter everywhere with YOLO.

Yes, exactly. MBTI and Keirsey INTP, primarily melancholy-choleric, EII-Ne and Jungian Fi-N.

 

[Nicki]

He has a real affection for SPs. The way a dog trainer has affection for dogs. His son, not so much, he seems pretty aggravated by SP shenanigans on the Keirsey forum. The biggest trouble makers on that forum are Keirsey SPs, and through the Keirsey perspective, this would be the truth, that Artisans are the ones shaking things up, where as on a lot of more Jungian-oriented forums you see a lot of people saying ENxPs do this, and Sensors are hardly ever on forums, and all sorts of garbage like that, that I don't always necessarily believe.

It's really a matter of which theory you follow, though, like I think you could be a different type in different theories.

I am. A Socionics ESFp is way too subdued and Gamma to fit the Keirsey stereotype of the really outgoing Sanguine Sanguine, spraying glitter everywhere with YOLO.

Keirsey was really excited by mythology, and more than anything, I appreciate his charts of the temperament, like language orientation and so forth.

I think his description of SJs, for example though, is too specific to time, place, culture, generation, etc.

That's why overall I do tend to go with Jung.

He made SPs sound really cool from what I remember but in this condescending sort of way.

I think ExxPs in general like to shake things up just for the sake of it.

Do you fit into the ISFP description by Keirsey better than the ESFP one? I'm probably an ESTJ in MBTI/Keirsey since I believe in being practical most of the time and I don't enjoy learning for the sake of it like Keirsey's NTs do. Haha.

He was very creative when it came to those kind of descriptions. I dislike a lot of his descriptions but he has flair.

He made SJs sound like boring prudes.

Jung forever!

 

[Nicki]

Oh also, just to chime in here, I do like his dark side descriptions. I am very much somewhere between the ESFP Binger and ISFP Derelict...overspending or overeating, manic impulsive behavior (can also show up as sex, gambling, drugs, alcohol in other people), really being overall too reckless. I lost my driver's license by 20 through speeding tickets alone, no drunk driving or anything, mang. And the Derelict is like someone so depressed they indulge in self-neglect, in worst case scenario becoming homeless, and I am no stranger to drifting though I've never chosen homelessness.

Where are these descriptions? They sound really interesting.

 

[Thalassa]

He made SPs sound really cool from what I remember but in this condescending sort of way.

I think ExxPs in general like to shake things up just for the sake of it.

Do you fit into the ISFP description by Keirsey better than the ESFP one? I'm probably an ESTJ in MBTI/Keirsey since I believe in being practical most of the time and I don't enjoy learning for the sake of it like Keirsey's NTs do. Haha.

He was very creative when it came to those kind of descriptions. I dislike a lot of his descriptions but he has flair.

He made SJs sound like boring prudes.

Jung forever!

ahh...showed them my most recent video (which is still from like 1 1/2 years ago, 2 years ago now, opposed to the one that's 3 or more years old) and they all said ESFP, while on this forum ISFP and ENFP were more common responses.

Which I found interesting.

My sheer amount of gab makes me an E in Keirsey I think, one ISxP dude over there was telling me that E means Expressive...and I guess you could call me that.

Still, the person who knows me best from talking to me personally one-on-one for long periods of time who has some level of psychological intimacy (or rather...did) who also knows about personality theory thinks I'm ISFP.

Most people who have a more average knowledge of me just from forums or meeting me one time in person seem to think some kind of ExFP.

I like the PTypes description of ISFP as ambiverted; the Phlegmatic Sanguine. Ambiverted is the perfect word for me. I spend more than ample time alone, despite my expressiveness.

 

[Thalassa]

Where are these descriptions? They sound really interesting.

This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22

These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

NTs:

Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

I have no clue what these correlate to.

I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

I also think this is cute:

There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

WTH are the SJs? BRB.

 

[Nicki]

ahh...showed them my most recent video (which is still from like 1 1/2 years ago, 2 years ago now, opposed to the one that's 3 or more years old) and they all said ESFP, while on this forum ISFP and ENFP were more common responses.

Which I found interesting.

My sheer amount of gab makes me an E in Keirsey I think, one ISxP dude over there was telling me that E means Expressive...and I guess you could call me that.

Still, the person who knows me best from talking to me personally one-on-one for long periods of time who has some level of psychological intimacy (or rather...did) who also knows about personality theory thinks I'm ISFP.

Most people who have a more average knowledge of me just from forums or meeting me one time in person seem to think some kind of ExFP.

I like the PTypes description of ISFP as ambiverted; the Phlegmatic Sanguine. Ambiverted is the perfect word for me. I spend more than ample time alone, despite my expressiveness.

Why ENFP?

That makes a lot of sense.

Hmm I've heard ISFPs are the most extraverted of introverts.

There's a PTypes and MBTI correlation? That's interesting. I definitely know I'm the Inventive personality type.

 

[Nicki]

This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22

These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

NTs:

Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

I have no clue what these correlate to.

I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

I also think this is cute:

There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

WTH are the SJs? BRB.

LOL I love those names!