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  1. #51
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, exactly. I hate the occupational titles. Same goes for the ESTJ "Supervisor" (though that's not as bad as "mechanic" imo).

    What would your preferred ISTP title be?
    I actually don't have a preferred title. But, I was introduced to MBTI from the book "Type Talk", which is a good introduction book. In that book, ISTP's title was "Ready to Try Anything Once", which I think is better than Craftsman, Mechanic, or Artisan. It captures a certain mentality of the ISTP that the occupational ones don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    How about "Artisan", which was Keirsey's original name for the type, when the temperament was "Dionysian".
    I never liked "Artisan" for the SP, because it's misleading, due to making it sound like they're all "artistic" or "crafters".
    For me, Artisan is on the same level as Craftsmen for me. I don't really like it, but it's not the worst that I've heard. I agree with you that Artisan is misleading. That's how I feel about all the type "titles". I can see how all the different names could apply in some small way, but they are taken too literally. What if an ISTP is not "artistic" or "mechanical" in the traditional sense? I'm more artistic than my father, who is also ISTP, while he is the more prototypical ISTP in that he is a mechanical genius. You name it, he can fix it. Electrical, plumbing, carpentry, computers, cars, bikes, etc. In all honesty though, I think I wouldn't have such a problem with the title "mechanic" if it weren't taken so literally. As I already said, it can apply in the literal sense, like with my dad, but that's not always the case. For instance, I do not know how to fix a car or a machine, although I do understand how such things work in a general sense. But, when it comes to breaking down the mechanisms of language and grammar, or say, typology systems, I'm in my element. The fact that I prefer sensing over intuition does not negate the fact that I'm a dominant introverted thinker, and that's why I have a problem with Keirsey's take on ISTPs, as well as poorly written MBTI descriptions. These descriptions and their titles emphasize the "concreteness", the mentality that ISTPs are artisans, crafters, mechanics, who do things always with their hands and never with their minds. I don't agree with that mentality.

    How do you feel about the "architect" title for INTP?

  2. #52
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    @madhatter Ultimately I love the title "architect". It sounds so grand and it's less literal I think because it just relates to the idea of INTPs ultimately being system builders just like the "mastermind" for INTJ is how they're great planners but the latter is definitely misleading because it sounds so... bombastic. The "idealist" for INFP is terrible, same with "the dreamer". Ultimately I don't think we should ascribe the types titles at all. I mean look at this place, the NF subforum is called "The Idyllic". I think the subtitles says more about how people view type than what the type truly is about.

    As you say, an ISTP is really not that much different to an INTP and if the ISTP is heavily introverted the S function could also be more introverted meaning Ti-Si as opposed to Ti-Se as is assumed for the type. Then what type is the person? Is it ISTP or INTP? Functionally INTP is better but if we just look at ego conscious functions, ISTP is still the better fit.

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  3. #53
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    madhatter Ultimately I love the title "architect". It sounds so grand and it's less literal I think because it just relates to the idea of INTPs ultimately being system builders just like the "mastermind" for INTJ is how they're great planners but the latter is definitely misleading because it sounds so... bombastic. The "idealist" for INFP is terrible, same with "the dreamer". Ultimately I don't think we should ascribe the types titles at all. I mean look at this place, the NF subforum is called "The Idyllic". I think the subtitles says more about how people view type than what the type truly is about.
    "Architect" would fit me better than "mechanic" does. Type Talk's title for INTPs is "A Love of Problem-Solving". I like this title, but it could easily apply to ISTPs as well.

    Ooooo..."idealist" The NF titles are very bad too. I feel like the S ones are just bad all around, but the NF ones have two effects...people want to embody whatever trait the title is implying, when they might not truly be NF, or it repels people who actually may be that type, but don't identify with the saccharine descriptors. My brother would be one of those INFPs. I thought he was an INTJ when I first got into type, because I could not see him in the cookie-cutter INFP descriptions.

    But I agree that it would better to have no titles at all. Then people would actually need to learn about the type to know what it is.

    As you say, an ISTP is really not that much different to an INTP and if the ISTP is heavily introverted the S function could also be more introverted meaning Ti-Si as opposed to Ti-Se as is assumed for the type. Then what type is the person? Is it ISTP or INTP? Functionally INTP is better but if we just look at ego conscious functions, ISTP is still the better fit.
    Perfect example of this. I mentioned that my dad is also ISTP. But, I believe his preferred functions might actually be Ti-Si-Ne-Fe, while mine are Ti-Ni/Se-Fe. If you just look at letter preferences, he definitely prefers S, and fits into many ISTP descriptions. Before I studied functions, I thought he might be either ISTP or ISTJ, but I quickly discarded ISTJ, because overall, it doesn't fit. But I sense that he "uses" much more Si than I do, and I would say he fits into the SP and SJ temperament traits. Me on the other hand, I fit ISTP descriptions, but I relate to INTP descriptions as well. I've always tested as either ISTP or INTP. And people who have a passing knowledge of type but don't know me really well think I'm NT, and don't believe me when I say I'm an "S". But when I'm talking about type with people who know me well, they see the SP. Ultimately, my dad and I are both introverted thinkers, and anyone who knows us always says how much we are alike.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    "Architect" would fit me better than "mechanic" does. Type Talk's title for INTPs is "A Love of Problem-Solving". I like this title, but it could easily apply to ISTPs as well.

    Ooooo..."idealist" The NF titles are very bad too. I feel like the S ones are just bad all around, but the NF ones have two effects...people want to embody whatever trait the title is implying, when they might not truly be NF, or it repels people who actually may be that type, but don't identify with the saccharine descriptors. My brother would be one of those INFPs. I thought he was an INTJ when I first got into type, because I could not see him in the cookie-cutter INFP descriptions.

    But I agree that it would better to have no titles at all. Then people would actually need to learn about the type to know what it is.
    Agreed. I have that love-hate relationship with the NF titles and not surprisingly, I can't convince people who don't know me and the system well that I'm really am an Fi dominant. It was weird for me to accept too because being an NT was so ingrained as a self-image and I come off as a stereotype NT. I just don't think like one in the sense that my T function is ego-conscious although I obviously rely a lot on my T function when I reason, probably more so than F for most of the part. So I mean, by that logic I could equally type as an ENTJ lmao, except that I'm not ordered and such like J types are supposed to be in the MBTI system.

    Perfect example of this. I mentioned that my dad is also ISTP. But, I believe his preferred functions might actually be Ti-Si-Ne-Fe, while mine are Ti-Ni/Se-Fe. If you just look at letter preferences, he definitely prefers S, and fits into many ISTP descriptions. Before I studied functions, I thought he might be either ISTP or ISTJ, but I quickly discarded ISTJ, because overall, it doesn't fit. But I sense that he "uses" much more Si than I do, and I would say he fits into the SP and SJ temperament traits. Me on the other hand, I fit ISTP descriptions, but I relate to INTP descriptions as well. I've always tested as either ISTP or INTP. And people who have a passing knowledge of type but don't know me really well think I'm NT, and don't believe me when I say I'm an "S". But when I'm talking about type with people who know me well, they see the SP. Ultimately, my dad and I are both introverted thinkers, and anyone who knows us always says how much we are alike.
    Yeah, so the question becomes if your dad is an INTP because functionally it lines up better or whether he's an ISTP because his two ego-conscious functions are Ti and S. Ultimately do you feel that you two are that much different in terms of thinking?

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  5. #55
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Agreed. I have that love-hate relationship with the NF titles and not surprisingly, I can't convince people who don't know me and the system well that I'm really am an Fi dominant. It was weird for me to accept too because being an NT was so ingrained as a self-image and I come off as a stereotype NT. I just don't think like one in the sense that my T function is ego-conscious although I obviously rely a lot on my T function when I reason, probably more so than F for most of the part. So I mean, by that logic I could equally type as an ENTJ lmao, except that I'm not ordered and such like J types are supposed to be in the MBTI system.
    I have no problem seeing you as Fi dominant, or even a MBTI INFP. I actually had more trouble seeing you as Ti dominant. The saga of trying to type my brother taught me a lot about Fi. It's not going to look like stereotypical "F". In fact, to the more novice eye, it can look like T. I would have sworn my brother was a T. He kept on testing as ISTJ, which I knew wasn't him, because my sister is ISTJ, and they're very different. But he is very logical and intellectual, and I could see the Te, but he's clearly N, so I went with INTJ. (What was funny about that...I often thought, wow, his Fi is really strong. d'oh!) But. In hindsight, the Te I was detecting is definitely inferior...the hyper-criticism and his neuroses surrounding Te matters doesn't lie, but at the time, I was too novice to see it. I gave him a cognitive functions test, and it blew my mind when the top three results all came back F preferred. That's when it all clicked for me, and I had to completely reevaluate everything I knew about Fi. Part of the problem is that he's an NF, the only boy, with an ST father, two ST sisters, two ST best friends. My brother and I get along the best, because of my secondary preference for NT. He buries the less "manly" aspects of Fi. Like, now that he's a confirmed INFP, he has admitted to me that while I try to make decisions from my intellect, he makes decisions and operates out of his "emotions" first. Mind blown again, mostly because I couldn't imagine living like that.

    My point: Fi can look like a T preference at first glance. My brother is also a 6, so he does have that head center energy that fuels his intellectualism. The fact that you're also a 5 adds to this illusion of thinking preference even more.

    Yeah, so the question becomes if your dad is an INTP because functionally it lines up better or whether he's an ISTP because his two ego-conscious functions are Ti and S. Ultimately do you feel that you two are that much different in terms of thinking?
    In his case, I still call him ISTP because his two ego-conscious functions are Ti > S. He really doesn't fit into the INTP/NT persona. For myself, I call myself ISTP, because functionally I'm ISTP, and in my case, I can't tell if the Se or Ni is more conscious. And I know I have a slight preference in favor of sensation.

    As I've been getting older, my thought processes have diverged more from his, but we still think in similar ways. I would say he's more pragmatic than I am. Not to say I am not practical...I am very practical. But not to exclusion of the intellectual, and vice versa. My father though, he is only concerned with pragmatic matters of life: work, saving money, the concrete realities of life. And this is not a bad thing. These are his strengths, and he excels at them. He is the one who taught the meaning of a strong work ethic and the worth of a dollar. Very street smart. However, the downside is that his pragmatism has trouble seeing anything he doesn't understand as valuable. If he can't see the pragmatic use of it, it has no use. He is all function over form. My mother on the other hand is all form over function, and not very practical at all, God bless her. So I was exposed to both schools of thought, and that has informed my differences in thinking from my dad. I have an appreciation for both form and function.

    Like, my father doesn't understand the world of higher education. He got his diploma and went straight to work. He did encourage my siblings and me to go to college, but that is a practical reality for getting a job in this economy. But he still doesn't understand it. I know he's proud of me, but when he doesn't understand something, he subconsciously devalues it at the same time. For instance, he has had a hard time understanding why I'm applying for internships, and why I don't just go out and get a "real" job. Not even exaggerating here. It took my brother brow-beating him with the fact that internships are now an essential step to getting a foot into the work world and using my very-successful sister as an example for my dad to even acknowledge the validity of it. She had an internship before getting her very well-paying job. I'm extremely proud of her, but her success straight out of college has made it more difficult for my brother and me with my father, especially since we're not going into a business related field like she did. It was smart of her. One, business suits her far better than it does me, but two, business is something that my father understands.

    Another difference between my dad and me, he's a 8 and I'm a 5. This area does not cause contention at all. Despite our differences, we've always shared a close connection from the time I was very young. Everyone calls me the favorite, which is true (except for my dad, who refuses to acknowledge that he has favorites). I've always been independent and strong-willed, albeit quiet and reserved. I think he saw and sees something in me that reminded him of himself. We both don't take anybody's crap. I actually understand what is going through his head, something that my sister and brother haven't mastered and have given up on.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    I have no problem seeing you as Fi dominant, or even a MBTI INFP. I actually had more trouble seeing you as Ti dominant. The saga of trying to type my brother taught me a lot about Fi. It's not going to look like stereotypical "F". In fact, to the more novice eye, it can look like T. I would have sworn my brother was a T. He kept on testing as ISTJ, which I knew wasn't him, because my sister is ISTJ, and they're very different. But he is very logical and intellectual, and I could see the Te, but he's clearly N, so I went with INTJ. (What was funny about that...I often thought, wow, his Fi is really strong. d'oh!) But. In hindsight, the Te I was detecting is definitely inferior...the hyper-criticism and his neuroses surrounding Te matters doesn't lie, but at the time, I was too novice to see it. I gave him a cognitive functions test, and it blew my mind when the top three results all came back F preferred. That's when it all clicked for me, and I had to completely reevaluate everything I knew about Fi. Part of the problem is that he's an NF, the only boy, with an ST father, two ST sisters, two ST best friends. My brother and I get along the best, because of my secondary preference for NT. He buries the less "manly" aspects of Fi. Like, now that he's a confirmed INFP, he has admitted to me that while I try to make decisions from my intellect, he makes decisions and operates out of his "emotions" first. Mind blown again, mostly because I couldn't imagine living like that.

    My point: Fi can look like a T preference at first glance. My brother is also a 6, so he does have that head center energy that fuels his intellectualism. The fact that you're also a 5 adds to this illusion of thinking preference even more.
    Yeah, I occasionally get people contacting me thinking I'm an INTJ. If just judging type descriptions though, I'm still stereotypically INTP which is ironic. I mean, I do have a thinking preference in the sense that I rely heavily on Te; it's just not conscious. But agreed, there's an unfortunate association with F being the same as Fe as well. Incidently though, I score very highly on Ti, Fi and Ne, a bit less on Ni and Te on Nardi's test. Fe is at rock bottom, Te never has been. Si is also very low.

    With that said, I am not sure I feel that I feel that I base most of my decisions on emotions. Decisions that matter yes, come down what I want and desire and what I think is good for me, but for most of the part it tends to be a cost-benefit evaluation. What do I get from this in return? What's the logical course of action to take in this situation? Day-to-day decisions ultimately also tend to come down to what I want and what's the logical step towards fulfilling that desire. I feel that's a big difference between 5 and 6 reasoning though. While 5, 6 and 7s are all head types I feel that there's a focus on the 5 that naturally comes across as logical. Not saying 6s aren't, but 6s tend to be more about doubting and ultimately, doing what's right due to the superego drive. I think it's more likely to reveal a natural F bias. I personally have no problems picking up F logic from 6s.

    Then of course, there's the problem that F is associated as illogical which isn't true either. But for me yeah, I think people are far more likely to pick up on Te than Fi because I don't really show it much in my reasoning process. I just don't see the need to express it. It pops out once in a blue moon. It's like I live most of my mental life through the inferior which is kind of weird but I guess not too unusual. I think it's common for people to have a persona associated with their unconscious. I see this being common with xSFJ men who often mistake themselves for xNTPs for the same reason as I typed as INTP.


    In his case, I still call him ISTP because his two ego-conscious functions are Ti > S. He really doesn't fit into the INTP/NT persona. For myself, I call myself ISTP, because functionally I'm ISTP, and in my case, I can't tell if the Se or Ni is more conscious. And I know I have a slight preference in favor of sensation.
    I see, interesting.

    As I've been getting older, my thought processes have diverged more from his, but we still think in similar ways. I would say he's more pragmatic than I am. Not to say I am not practical...I am very practical. But not to exclusion of the intellectual, and vice versa. My father though, he is only concerned with pragmatic matters of life: work, saving money, the concrete realities of life. And this is not a bad thing. These are his strengths, and he excels at them. He is the one who taught the meaning of a strong work ethic and the worth of a dollar. Very street smart. However, the downside is that his pragmatism has trouble seeing anything he doesn't understand as valuable. If he can't see the pragmatic use of it, it has no use. He is all function over form. My mother on the other hand is all form over function, and not very practical at all, God bless her. So I was exposed to both schools of thought, and that has informed my differences in thinking from my dad. I have an appreciation for both form and function.
    Would you say he is also sp first?

    Like, my father doesn't understand the world of higher education. He got his diploma and went straight to work. He did encourage my siblings and me to go to college, but that is a practical reality for getting a job in this economy. But he still doesn't understand it. I know he's proud of me, but when he doesn't understand something, he subconsciously devalues it at the same time. For instance, he has had a hard time understanding why I'm applying for internships, and why I don't just go out and get a "real" job. Not even exaggerating here. It took my brother brow-beating him with the fact that internships are now an essential step to getting a foot into the work world and using my very-successful sister as an example for my dad to even acknowledge the validity of it. She had an internship before getting her very well-paying job. I'm extremely proud of her, but her success straight out of college has made it more difficult for my brother and me with my father, especially since we're not going into a business related field like she did. It was smart of her. One, business suits her far better than it does me, but two, business is something that my father understands.
    Makes sense. Almost sounds more Si-dominant to me in the sense that he favors that which he knows and has experienced.

    Another difference between my dad and me, he's a 8 and I'm a 5. This area does not cause contention at all. Despite our differences, we've always shared a close connection from the time I was very young. Everyone calls me the favorite, which is true (except for my dad, who refuses to acknowledge that he has favorites). I've always been independent and strong-willed, albeit quiet and reserved. I think he saw and sees something in me that reminded him of himself. We both don't take anybody's crap. I actually understand what is going through his head, something that my sister and brother haven't mastered and have given up on.
    Makes sense as well.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #57
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Would you say he is also sp first?
    Yes, very strong SP.

    Makes sense. Almost sounds more Si-dominant to me in the sense that he favors that which he knows and has experienced.
    That's why at first I thought he might be ISTJ, but I discarded that notion long ago. I know too many xSTJs, and he doesn't fit the bill. But you can understand why I came to the conclusion that he uses Si instead of Se.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    That's why at first I thought he might be ISTJ, but I discarded that notion long ago. I know too many xSTJs, and he doesn't fit the bill. But you can understand why I came to the conclusion that he uses Si instead of Se.
    Definitely.

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  9. #59
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I still laugh at Keirsey and these links reminded me why:

    http://plover.net/~bonds/keirsey_riff.html

    http://plover.net/~bonds/personality.html

    He also knocks MBTI, which is nothing bad and most likely deserved.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #60
    Senior Member PimpinMcBoltage's Avatar
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    I honestly feel a tad embarrassed for thinking I was an INFP because of Keirsey's descriptions.

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