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  1. #21
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    In keirsey's work I am an NT because I have a brain. Oh and I like learning new capabilities.

    I can't picture a single person who would identify with an SJ type under his theory. They are just some alien relic pieced together from a time gone by. Sprinkled with just a....little, ok large, amount of bias.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    In keirsey's work I am an NT because I have a brain. Oh and I like learning new capabilities.

    I can't picture a single person who would identify with an SJ type under his theory. They are just some alien relic pieced together from a time gone by. Sprinkled with just a....little, ok large, amount of bias.
    Can you picture @JTG1984?

    Because he actually does.

    He likes the SJ matrix of temperament, specifically, and I agree, I like the matrices of temperament better than Keirsey's individual type descriptions, which tend to veer off into fanciful mythology and steretypes from the 1950s.

    JTG is more of the 1980s-2000's "get off my lawn kid, I'm in a hurry in one of my ten exactly-the-same black shirts to go play tennis."

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

    http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/v....php?f=11&t=22

    These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

    NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

    I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

    NTs:

    Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

    I have no clue what these correlate to.

    I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

    I also think this is cute:

    There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

    WTH are the SJs? BRB.
    Perverse Derelict, that is pretty good. Eris B's page on type had isfp as phleg/san as well. Makes sense.

  4. #24
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

    http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/v....php?f=11&t=22

    These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

    NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

    I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

    NTs:

    Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

    I have no clue what these correlate to.

    I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

    I also think this is cute:

    There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

    WTH are the SJs? BRB.
    Too bad Dark Escape isn't out yet. I like typology books that take a critical stance because, while they are harder to read, the intensity of the reaction they provoke makes it easier to feel out what's what.

    Also seeing the favoritism here that the OP brought up here, with NFs sticking out sinisterly, hatefully. Did Keirsey have an unhinged NF ex-girlfriend or something? Their nicknames could all be premises for horror movies. I mean:

    Unscrupulous Cheaters: Run away!
    Malicious Vandals: Yikes!
    Reckless Bingers: Draining.
    Perverse Derelicts: Is this...even legal?

    Programmed Checkers: Could actually be an asset in some offices!
    Spellbound Ruminators: Actually kind of romantic. Let me join you, spellbound ruminator.
    Derailed Escapists: Idle but not actively harmful.
    Stunned Blockers: Annoying at worst. Frozen.

    Convulsive Decoy: A doll is haunted by the ghost of a little girl who died of parasites in the brain. When the doll imitates her death, convulsing and leaking blood, her vengeful spirit is awake...
    Emptied Possum: Slow zombies that play dead to lure their prey. The virus first spreads to humans when a rural family undercooks some roadkill.
    Masked Impostor: They have replaced your friends and your loved ones. Under the masks, there are no faces. They will consume you next.
    Immolated Zealot: A flaming vision that comes in dreams. An ancient sorcerer who swore, burning on a cross, that he would return...

  5. #25
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    Actually all of the really scary ones are SP...but I think it's because SPs "act upon" the world, so it's like you can't get away from what they're doing, because they're doing it.

    I also didn't list the SJ ones bc I couldn't find them, but I'm sure they're just as bad or worse, just more boring and legal.

    I think the NF ones are emotionally dramatic because hysteria is what characterizes the NF (in a dark way).

    The NT ones are bad if you choose to interact with them. I guess his point with NTs is that you can potentially actually avoid them.

    Unless they're Vladimir Putin?

    Yeah, he has a lot of bias. It shows.

    Keirsey's wife is actually NF.

    His son's gf is also an NF.
    @Webslinger.

  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    In my opinion David Keirsey in his titles for each of his role variants clearly favored the NTs over all of the other temperaments and hence I think he was a supremecist because pretty much everybody would rather be a Mastermind or an Inventor rather than a Supervisor or a Provider. Some of his titles clearly sound better than others. Perhaps they should be renamed more fairly.
    They really should be!

    It's a mix between businesslike and romanticized. It'd be more fair if they were either all romanticized, or all businesslike. Some of the more businesslike lists earlier in the thread seemed pretty fair, e.g. the ones from @skylights and @Eric B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    ESTJ - Supervisor (could be Executive or Director)
    I fail to see how either of those is an improvement, especially when you suggested such over-the-top ones for INFJs. (Perpetuating the problem?)

    They're all decent enough for the businesslike route, though. Re: the romantic route, I like The Guardian. Makes us sound like badasses!

    Edit: On second thought, I vote that ESTJ becomes The Terminator, because ESTJs love to finish things.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #27
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I would name them

    ESTJ ~ The Administrator
    ISTJ ~ The Auditor
    ESFJ ~ The Shepherd
    ISFJ ~ The Supporter

    ESTP ~ The Opportunist
    ISTP ~ The Craftsman
    ESFP ~ The Performer
    ISFP ~ The Sculptor

    ENFP ~ The Paladin
    INFP ~ The Dreamer
    ENFJ ~ The Inspirer
    INFJ ~ The Oracle

    ENTP ~ The Trickster
    INTP ~ The Philosopher
    ENTJ ~ The Director
    INTJ ~ The Innovator

    PS: I kept a few of Keirsey's titles
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  8. #28
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I would name them

    ESTJ ~ The Administrator
    ISTJ ~ The Auditor
    ESFJ ~ The Shepherd
    ISFJ ~ The Supporter

    ESTP ~ The Opportunist
    ISTP ~ The Craftsman
    ESFP ~ Performer
    ISFP ~ The Sculptor

    ENFP ~ The Paladin
    INFP ~ The Dreamer
    ENFJ ~ The Inspirer
    INFJ ~ The Oracle

    ENTP ~ The Trickster
    INTP ~ The Philosopher
    ENTJ ~ The Director
    INTJ ~ The Innovator

    PS: I kept a few of Keirsey's titles
    Slightly better, but still biased, imo -- seems like the TJs get office names ("Auditor", "Director"), and the NFs get glorious romantic names ("Paladin", "Oracle").

    Also, I dunno if "Opportunist" has the nicest connotation...

    Edit: Do the poor ESFPs not deserve a definite article?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  9. #29
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Slightly better, but still biased, imo -- seems like the TJs get office names ("Auditor", "Director")
    biased, but, in my opinion, strongly correlated. TJs do well at administration, handling resources etc.

    and the NFs get glorious romantic names ("Paladin", "Oracle").
    okay, "The Paladin" was pretty damn biased, but seriously, NFs tend to be more up in the clouds romantics.

    Also, I dunno if "Opportunist" has the nicest connotation...
    it doesn't, but it's an accurate title. personally, I don't consider it an insult. being an opportunist can get you far in life.

    Edit: Do the poor ESFPs not deserve a definite article?
    fixed

    some of the titles were more "glamorous" than others, but that's the reality (glamorous doesn't mean better, it means attention grabbing and dramatic, with which strong type correlations can be made). for instance, "The Supporter" for ISFJ is probably not the most awe inspiring title, but it's what they do, and most ISFJs would tell you
    - they agree with me
    - they don't have much desire for more glamorous lines of work
    - they're proud of it
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  10. #30
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    okay, "The Paladin" was pretty damn biased, but seriously, NFs tend to be more up in the clouds romantics.
    Just because they're more romantic, doesn't mean they deserve a more legendary/romantic title. That's where the bias comes from in the first place!

    I mean, hell, I'm pretty sure every type glorifies themselves in their imagination somehow. (That's why I suggested "Guardian" as a romantic ESTJ title, not just because it's already been used for ESTJs, but because the idea of fighting for Justice and All That Is Right is something that I feel ESTJs would easily relate to.) So why deprive the rest of us of that glorification, so long as we're giving it to the NFs? You can keep your Paladin title if the rest of us get rough equivalents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    some of the titles were more "glamorous" than others, but that's the reality (glamorous doesn't mean better, it means attention grabbing and dramatic, with which strong type correlations can be made). for instance, "The Supporter" for ISFJ is probably not the most awe inspiring title, but it's what they do, and most ISFJs would tell you
    - they agree with me
    - they don't have much desire for more glamorous lines of work
    - they're proud of it
    MBTI type bias usually comes from this sort of reasoning -- i.e. it's fine for these type descriptions and type names to be tonally different, because TECHNICALLY they're still accurate. Nonetheless, as an SJ, I look at the SJ type names and wonder why we got the boring office-job names when everyone else got either dramatic/artsy ones (SP), romantic/"legendary" ones (NF), or epic/"genius" ones (NT). It doesn't matter if NTs are more likely to want intellectual work, or if NFs are more romantic, or if SPs really do all want to work with their hands (which I'm highly skeptical about). From where I see it, the only way to get rid of type bias is to describe each type on equal terms. No one type should be called a legendary figure without every other type being one as well, because no type is more legendary than any other. Otherwise, what you get is: Artists, Craftsmen, Scientific Geniuses, Psychics, Poetic Innovators... and office lackeys. As if NFs, NTs, and SPs couldn't just as easily be office lackeys. (Which is why I referenced the other naming systems posted on the first page, as being more fair: they all have the same "professional" tone, and are thus more fair and equal.)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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