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  1. #141
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This is not on a par with what it is like to be iNtuitive in a Sensor world. I know you can't see that, but...that's kinda the point.
    How do you know im not leading you on and im really an intuitive in disguise?

    I made my situation SOUND marginalised and concrete, but in reality it is also within the lack of appreciation for abstraction that I struggle. Ive said many times before and ill say it again: Most of the differences between people are matters of intelligence not only type.

    How many times did I want to tell my mother that my outline wasnt in focus with my inline, that my head was full of cotton wool and that one of the cats seemed more mithered than the other? That the one next door neighbour had diamonds in his brain but the other was leaking glass?

    But I couldn't because I wasn't sure she would understand. That's the trouble, the eyes only turn inwards and we reflect like mirrors, rather than building our own.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #142
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Some examples of how N looks better in descriptions than S would help. I've already given the example of the ISTP description at personalitypages as positive (the ISTP is "rational and logical", or words to that effect) but then I'm told that personalitypages has bad descriptions. The point is, they aren't negative sounding, and the ISTP I was talking to simply finds it a boring description because he is an ISTP. I don't see how S is being picked on, and not because I am an N but because I am objective enough to see the formula used to create each of the descriptions, in that it's exactly the same (boring) formula used in each one.
    Actually I think the ones at Personality Page are fantastic basic descriptions. I often use them to grab a quick reminder or clarification on a type. Of course, if you want something more in depth and insightful, you are better to look elsewhere.

    However the sorts of things I'm talking about are more subtle; like @Orangey said, making NFs sound like rock stars and cultural warriors, and then have SJs characterised as accountants. And as you said, it's not that descriptions for Sensors are negative (or that Sensors are being picked on per se), it's just that they aren't as exciting and appealling (which as a result, may have the effect of making them appear slightly negative in comparison). Anyway, I don't think it's an overwhelming problem; it's just a niggling thing that goes on in the background that can influence things.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  3. #143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I made my situation SOUND marginalised and concrete, but in reality it is also within the lack of appreciation for abstraction that I struggle. Ive said many times before and ill say it again: Most of the differences between people are matters of intelligence not type.
    What kind of differences? (Without qualifications, that comment seems worthless to me. You could replace "intelligence" and "type" with any two words without adding anything to the discussion.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #144
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What kind of differences? (Without qualifications, that comment seems worthless to me. You could replace "intelligence" and "type" with any two words without adding anything to the discussion.)
    Ill admit I constantly re-edit my posts as new information occurs to me and as I proof read what ive read to convey the message I want. So ive added to that a tiny bit.

    But if we take on assumption that intelligent people, (however one might define or quantify it), usually possess an ability to think on multiple levels at once, have a speedier grasp of elements which their particular intelligence is geared towards, I think it is a fair point to make that many intelligent sensors would otherwise type as intelligent intuitives.

    Abstraction and an understanding of complex theoretical concepts is an element of that higher reasoning that often comes with intelligence. The type is merely the WAY in which that reasoning is reached.

    Im sorry sometimes it's hard for me to explain what I see in my head.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #145
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    But if we take on assumption that intelligent people, (however one might define or quantify it), usually possess an ability to think on multiple levels at once, have a speedier grasp of elements which their particular intelligence is geared towards, I think it is a fair point to make that many intelligent sensors would otherwise type as intelligent intuitives.
    This doesn't necessarily bear out. My ex has an IQ in the 130's, yet is very very ISFJ and possessed a long-time fear of iNtuitive style thinking and behavior and definitely has struggled with inferior intuition. Despite the intelligence, the type style channels how the intelligence is applied. Does not come across at all as iNtuitive.

    I do think other things are involved (like cultural influence and structure), which can either liberate or restrict thought.

    EDIT: And here's a personal example:

    Sitting here this morning feeling like quitting my job or asking for a transfer. I'm caught between a female ESFJ and a female ESTJ, on a team of S types, and I'm an NP. Typically I feel like I'm the one who misses details here and there, no matter how hard I work; and I'm constantly having someone correct something or come to me about the "way I should have done something," all of which seems arbitrary to begin with. Anytime I use my normal sensibilities, I feel like it just gets me into trouble.

    Yesterday, there was the morning debacle where one of the first things the customer did on the phone was ream us out for not including two people on the meeting invite. Well, when I was asked to set up this meeting by my boss who was away the day before, only two teams were on the list; I flexed to new information and the list expanded to more the "cast of thousands," and suddenly the customer was being invited to this meeting, and a few of the other analysts even reviewed the list and said it was okay. I tried to avoid inviting people who were halfway across the country as well or tying up personnel who had many many things on their plate... but suddenly dropping these two people from a meeting I was originally asked by my boss to only include two small internal teams was a matter bad enough to bring a public reprimand to our team (which my lead took the hit for, and then went a round on the phone with the guy after, ending up in tears about it).

    Then I busted my butt to take three sets of notes from the meeting I had to facilitate, to dump items into an emergency release spreadsheet that I had to stay 45 minutes of overtime to do, when I really just wanted to go home after having a crappy day and finding out I had to find a new place to live. (So I was being over-responsible and investing in this job.) I informed the ESTJ about my work face to face after 5pm, and left a note telling my team lead to review the list with me in the morning before sending it (since her target time was 10am, and I knew I'd see her at least two hours before that).

    So I get in, the team lead's already added something to the list and sent it out without stepping through it with me, and the ESTJ is now informing me (in what I perceive to be kind tones now, but she still comes off as a heavy because she has little warmth) that we could have sent it out for a review (for an item I finished after hours and that my lead wanted out by 10am? Why would that make sense to me?), and she had looked over it and made some changes, but if I had forwarded her on the copy and other people, they could have been involved possibly, etc.

    Again, trying to be efficient, operate according to the goal, not including people unnecessarily, and using my normal instincts failed miserably. I'm sick of doing this job now and want to quit... not just because I don't enjoy getting criticized constantly (I've been feeling this way for a few months), but because my perception is that my instincts and the natural expectations for this team just don't mesh, and I'm always going to make mistakes and not be able to play the game as expected, and I don't want to feel inadequate all the time nor let my team down all the time. They just need some other methodical, detail-oriented, by the book person to do this job.

    That's not a matter of intelligence either. Both the ESFJ and ESTJ are very intelligent. It's a type thing. The ESJs control approach and procedure; I can't seem to get it right... and I'm pretty smart too. Maybe it could be a little different if people transcended type... but note you have to "transcend" it... so it's still obviously a factor.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #146
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    How do you know im not leading you on and im really an intuitive in disguise?
    I apologise for assuming you actually wanted an answer to your questions. I now see that is not the case. Noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This doesn't necessarily bear out. My ex has an IQ in the 130's, yet is very very ISFJ and possessed a long-time fear of iNtuitive style thinking and behavior and definitely has struggled with inferior intuition. Despite the intelligence, the type style channels how the intelligence is applied. Does not come across at all as iNtuitive.

    I do think other things are involved (like cultural influence and structure), which can either liberate or restrict thought.

    Well, there's a whole topic in itself. I think that really smart people often second guess themselves anyway, highly aware of their weaknesses, etc. None of us can have God-like perception, but once you get to a certain level of awareness and speed of thought, you just realize what perception you may not have and how you could use it to further your mental capabilities. (sorry, trying to cut back on the rambling a bit so I won't go any further. )
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
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  8. #148
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Ill admit I constantly re-edit my posts as new information occurs to me and as I proof read what ive read to convey the message I want. So ive added to that a tiny bit.

    But if we take on assumption that intelligent people, (however one might define or quantify it), usually possess an ability to think on multiple levels at once, have a speedier grasp of elements which their particular intelligence is geared towards, I think it is a fair point to make that many intelligent sensors would otherwise type as intelligent intuitives.

    Abstraction and an understanding of complex theoretical concepts is an element of that higher reasoning that often comes with intelligence. The type is merely the WAY in which that reasoning is reached.

    Im sorry sometimes it's hard for me to explain what I see in my head.
    That could definitely work both ways. It's assuming that intuitive can fully grasp concepts in a sensor way but it doesn't work the other way around. It's that an unintelligent intuitive can be a flake that glazes over things without ever giving them a more in depth thought.


    Both far sighted and near sighted people are missing equal depth of perception in many ways. A fast and thorough thinker who is able to quickly assess situations from the inside out and outside in is going to need from a variety of different angles, zoom in or out, N or S.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  9. #149
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I apologise for assuming you actually wanted an answer to your questions. I now see that is not the case. Noted.
    I suppose im somewhat......irritated by the constant assertion that this is somehow part of MY world because being a sensing type automatically makes things easier for me.

    Yes im sure that is a stupid thing to think and once again I dont assume that all intuitives think this way, but ive heard it so much across these forums. I suppose I ought to just take it in stride, but I did try considering the other point of view....going: You know what they shouldn't be judged by anyone such as me, clearly they have it rough.

    However automatic responses are automatic and hard to shake, even with the jittery self-conscious nature that I possess.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #150
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Well, there's a whole topic in itself. I think that really smart people often second guess themselves anyway, highly aware of their weaknesses, etc. None of us can have God-like perception, but once you get to a certain level of awareness and speed of thought, you just realize what perception you may not have and how you could use it to further your mental capabilities. (sorry, trying to cut back on the rambling a bit so I won't go any further. )
    That sounds like it should make sense, but even here on this forum I find some very intelligent people who don't seem to second-guess themselves at all (unless they are waking up in their bed crying late at night, out of our view, ha ha... shocker!)... and interestingly some of them are Ns.

    I do think what you describe is a hallmark of healthy, mature individuals... not overemphasizing their weaknesses or having hangups about them, but at least perceptive of them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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