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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Don't know what that is.
    Don't care.
    Think your posts have been nonsensical and you're giving Ns/INTPs a bad name by representing them.
    I only read a few of his/her posts, but I agree.
    Dirt Farmer

  2. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    To be honest, my perspective is that N types (who end up writing many of these online descriptions) are generous with the subjects they know... iNtuition. They don't really grasp Sensing very well, so you don't really see a lot of great descriptions of it. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily purposeful diminishing of Sensing behavior and motivation, it's just a form of cluelessness about how such a thing works.

    I know we tried to encourage more Sensors to write their own type descriptions, or maybe Sensors and Intuitives work together on this site to create descriptions for all the types and/or functions, but I'm not sure how much progress was really made in that area.
    I wouldn't mind helping write one up on ISFP.
    Dirt Farmer

  3. #133
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I also wonder sometimes how much culture plays a role. Maybe some countries or regions have more SJs (or otherwise) than others. I'd bet that cities have more Ns than small towns do.
    I was actually thinking about the culture of the forum. Ha! But that's a good question too.

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  4. #134
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What makes you think Intuitives are any more drawn to their type descriptions? None of us like to listen to ourselves talk or see ourselves on video. It's a little analogous. Though it may in fact be true, I am not convinced there is a substantive difference in the quality of the type descriptions or functions for that matter in high quality materials. When I am talking about high quality, I am referring to books. I agree with Mal+ that the books are much better than what is online. It's how the publishing companies make money.
    Oh, I think you're right. I first discovered my type in a book and at the time I knew nothing of the negative portrayal of S, so it didn't influence me. Unfortunately most people won't read about it in a book, and some will learn about which types are more 'cool' before they decide on their type.

    What I meant was, online a lot of the descriptions and general talk is slanted toward making N more appealing (and S look unappealling). And if there wasn't a substantial difference in the appeal of N and S descriptions, you wouldn't get people mistyping as N as regularly as I believe they do. I know what you're saying about seeing yourself on video, but I don't think it's always the case. There can be that pleasure in discovering your type, which gives you a sense of validation. If you asked most people here, they would tell you, that in spite of the downsides, they're happy and proud to be the type they are.

    Ugh sorry, I feel like I'm not explaining myself well...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #135
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, I think you're right. I first discovered my type in a book and at the time I knew nothing of the negative portrayal of S, so it didn't influence me. Unfortunately most people won't read about it in a book, and some will learn about which types are more 'cool' before they decide on their type.

    What I meant was, online a lot of the descriptions and general talk is slanted toward making N more appealing (and S look unappealling). And if there wasn't a substantial difference in the appeal of N and S descriptions, you wouldn't get people mistyping as N as regularly as I believe they do. I know what you're saying about seeing yourself on video, but I don't think it's always the case. There can be that pleasure in discovering your type, which gives you a sense of validation. If you asked most people here, they would tell you, that in spite of the downsides, they're happy and proud to be the type they are.
    That helps me to understand. You crystallized those points really well.

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  6. #136
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Not sure why you would think that. It has certainly not been the case with me. I might not be a "weirdo" for being N, but I can be one for many other reasons. Even sticking purely to type, an ISTP woman is seen as far more "abnormal" by society overall than an ENFJ, and maybe even all the NF types.

    I'm not trying to compete at "who has it worst", just pointing out that N is only one of MANY factors that influence how "at home" you feel in the world.
    Sure, but since it IS a factor N+T >>> T alone in the weirdness stakes.

    My "at home in the world" comment isn't just about % of population. Ss are also more in tune with their environments and "rooted" to concrete reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Personally, I don't believe that most people have SJ parents; Parents tend to gain traits stereotypical to SJs simply by virtue of being responsible parents. I probably would have typed my mom as ISFJ if she hadn't taken the test as INFJ, and then read both the INFJ and ISFJ descriptions, and said, and I quote, "I may relate to 75% of the ISFJ description, but I relate to 100% of the INFJ one."

    This isn't to say that you specifically are mistyping your parents, because there's no way for me to know that, but I do know that half the time that people complain to me about their ESTJ relatives in the "Ask an ESTJ" thread, those relatives end up being another type, generally either ESTP or ENTJ.

    I keep hearing things like this from Ns on the forum, and it always amazes and confuses me, because I am so utterly surrounded by Ns. .
    It's not a question of belief, it's a simple case of statistical probability. The fact that you "keep hearing" it should tell you your experience is an unusual one.

    I haven't mistyped my mum, she typed herself.

    I do agree that we have a habit of projecting SJness onto people who do stuff that annoys us. Which is a flavour of prejudice.
    I've even made the reverse error myself of using the following logic:

    I like him
    I like NF men
    Therefore, he must be NF

    Turns out he was ESTJ.

    These are simply heuristics and the exceptions are just as important as the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #137
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Jesus God. Really. All one has to do to be commonly understood is.. you know, use words properly.
    That's a rather naive statement, in my experience.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #138
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    There's more of them, and frankly they're good at a lot of "management related" issues. That's why there seems to be a decent number of ESTJ administrator types.
    Interesting.

    You see im very likely an SJ type and often the premise I come across a lot is, (at least simplified), that offline it is a sensors world, it is catered towards them and they have an automatic advantage. Whereas N's are the ugly duckling, never seen for what they are and only judged for what they appear to be so they often retreat into the internet, even the extraverted ones.

    Here they have a dominance and therefore, for once, they get to write the script on how things are done, (so to speak). Now im not saying this is how all intuitive types would present it, nor am I saying they would all believe in thise side of it, but ive heard and read so many anecdotal experiences that pertain to this side of the story.

    Now this is where I find myself a little lost, because im not an N type and I still find what could roughly be called 'the outside' quite frustrating. Id much rather say home, play video games and paint warhammer models, (which ive got fairly good at over the years if I do say so myself).

    I like getting lost in fiction and my track record at jobs and routine is less than satisfactory. I do wonder however if, because a lot of these theories were adapted in the United States, if there is not a cultural slant to many people's experiences. Im not saying you are american of course, but a majority of people here probably are and certainly were on places like Perc.

    This isn't to say people of other countries would not relate, but ive noticed from observing from afar, from talking to people from the USA, from observing what people from the USA say on forums like these and from those of different countries visiting there; that there seems to be a seriously muddled amount of bureaucracy permeating the entire countries infrastructure and the general....'outgoing' nature of popular culture in the United States means that many things are often more upfront than in other countries, but once again this is an exaggeration.

    But if I were to compare it with my own, America in general seems to be a very earnest country; it takes something, adopts it and then runs it to the extreme. I suppose the long winded point is that perhaps SJ-ness in America is more extreme than elsewhere, or at least than in some other countries.

    I remember a topic on Perc that I found quite enjoyable, it was all about a countries entire MBTI...what they appeared to be and what they really were and the one for America was: Wants to appear ENP...as in innovative, new ideas, always growing pioneers. But the reality of it was that internally it was ESJ.

    Of course it is a bit silly to apply this to an ENTIRE country, but it was fun to speculate on nonetheless. The interesting thing is that it was those that were from the United States that promoted this idea, rather than those from without. So to me this might explain, for example, how people like David Keirsey came to formulate their view on certain dichtomies of type. Afterall he grew up in the 1930/40's and you can tell that coloured a great deal of his views towards certain types, especially SJ's.

    Because as a culture changes so too does the social environment and I have wondered if SJ's are more succeptible to the current environment so much so that SJ's now are far different than SJ's then. But this is probably incorrect.

    However it was still fun to think about.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  9. #139
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Interesting.

    You see im very likely an SJ type and often the premise I come across a lot is, (at least simplified), that offline it is a sensors world, it is catered towards them and they have an automatic advantage. Whereas N's are the ugly duckling, never seen for what they are and only judged for what they appear to be so they often retreat into the internet, even the extraverted ones.

    Here they have a dominance and therefore, for once, they get to write the script on how things are done, (so to speak). Now im not saying this is how all intuitive types would present it, nor am I saying they would all believe in thise side of it, but ive heard and read so many anecdotal experiences that pertain to this side of the story.

    Now this is where I find myself a little lost, because im not an N type and I still find what could roughly be called 'the outside' quite frustrating. Id much rather say home, play video games and paint warhammer models, (which ive got fairly good at over the years if I do say so myself).

    I like getting lost in fiction and my track record at jobs and routine is less than satisfactory.
    This is not on a par with what it is like to be iNtuitive in a Sensor world. I know you can't see that, but...that's kinda the point.

    I do wonder however if, because a lot of these theories were adapted in the United States, if there is not a cultural slant to many people's experiences.
    Multicultural Use of the MBTI® Instrument

    Excerpted from MBTI® Manual (CPP, Inc. 1998). Used with permission.

    While type has not been assessed in all cultural societies, it has been surveyed in about 30 countries on all continents, some with more than one culture. So far, the studies have suggested the following:

    All type preferences (E-I, S-N, T-F, and J-P) appear in all cultures studied to date.
    People in different cultures report that the descriptions of the individual preferences make sense to them. They find value and usefulness in using type concepts in various ways, for example, to improve interactions and communication between diverse individuals and within groups.

    People in different cultures report that Isabel Myers’ original whole type descriptions, or more recent versions, are appropriate and applicable. They react with, “This is me!”

    Distributions of the sixteen types differ across different cultures. However, distribution patterns are similar across all the cultures studied.
    STJ types predominate in all cultures.


    Males within each culture report a preference for Thinking that is 10 percent to 25 percent higher than that reported by females.

    Business people in various cultures in North America, Asia, Africa, and Europe were grouped according to temperament pairs (SJ, SP, NF, and NT types). When asked to select an animal to represent their groups, they selected similar animals, as appropriate to their physical environment: The SJ types chose loyal hard-working animals, the SP types chose independent adaptable animals, the NF types chose companionable animals who engaged in teamwork, and the NT types selected animals of competence and vision.

    People in the same profession often have similar types. For example, law enforcement officers in Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States show preferences for ISTJ and ESTJ.

    Structured interviews of the same types across different cultures produced similar reactions. For example, ESTJ men and ESFJ women found great support from their environment as they grow up. The opposite types, INFP men and INTP women, reported more difficulty in finding a satisfactory fit for themselves as they grew up.

    In summary, studies to date provide clear support for the theory that psychological type is universal across cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, I think you're right. I first discovered my type in a book and at the time I knew nothing of the negative portrayal of S, so it didn't influence me. Unfortunately most people won't read about it in a book, and some will learn about which types are more 'cool' before they decide on their type.

    What I meant was, online a lot of the descriptions and general talk is slanted toward making N more appealing (and S look unappealling). And if there wasn't a substantial difference in the appeal of N and S descriptions, you wouldn't get people mistyping as N as regularly as I believe they do. I know what you're saying about seeing yourself on video, but I don't think it's always the case. There can be that pleasure in discovering your type, which gives you a sense of validation. If you asked most people here, they would tell you, that in spite of the downsides, they're happy and proud to be the type they are.

    Ugh sorry, I feel like I'm not explaining myself well...
    Some examples of how N looks better in descriptions than S would help. I've already given the example of the ISTP description at personalitypages as positive (the ISTP is "rational and logical", or words to that effect) but then I'm told that personalitypages has bad descriptions. The point is, they aren't negative sounding, and the ISTP I was talking to simply finds it a boring description because he is an ISTP. I don't see how S is being picked on, and not because I am an N but because I am objective enough to see the formula used to create each of the descriptions, in that it's exactly the same (boring) formula used in each one.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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