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  1. #121
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Then I apologise for misreading the situation. I think another non-INTP posted who she thought was best for her Dad or something, rather than who he was currently with, which is a massive .
    Oh! I had no idea you thought that. Sorry, I must not have been clear. Yeah, my mom and dad are still together, as they have been for 25 years. That's why I posted the additional post, in that thread, elaborating on their relationship, and how the two of them had begun to shape each other's behavior, by virtue of being together so long.
    INTPs can be resentful of the way ESJs have a habit of encroaching or giving unsolicited advice or just telling us we're basically doing it wrong in our day2day lives (most of us have SJ parents/teachers/bosses), so we can bit a bit tetchy and sensitive about it.
    Personally, I don't believe that most people have SJ parents; Parents tend to gain traits stereotypical to SJs simply by virtue of being responsible parents. I probably would have typed my mom as ISFJ if she hadn't taken the test as INFJ, and then read both the INFJ and ISFJ descriptions, and said, and I quote, "I may relate to 75% of the ISFJ description, but I relate to 100% of the INFJ one."

    This isn't to say that you specifically are mistyping your parents, because there's no way for me to know that, but I do know that half the time that people complain to me about their ESTJ relatives in the "Ask an ESTJ" thread, those relatives end up being another type, generally either ESTP or ENTJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yet at the same time, I think I've mentioned it before, in my entire family (including cousins) of 30+ people, I only had one other N relative... and she lives 700 miles away. Any group I've ever been in has been about 80-90% Sensors. And even at my workplace, which you would expect to have more NTs than other settings, it's still been heavily populated by S types and I only have 1-2 N people I can talk to.
    I keep hearing things like this from Ns on the forum, and it always amazes and confuses me, because I am so utterly surrounded by Ns. I have so few Sensor friends, and my extended family is only half Sensor (I think; I have an aunt and an uncle who are Sensors but besides that I think everyone's an NT or an NF). So I keep hearing people talking about how it's a Sensor world out there, and "us Ns have to stick together", and that sort of thing, but to me it's always been an N world. I grew up having to adapt to communication breakdowns between me and my N parents, and somehow attracted almost exclusively N friends all through school, and now I'm at a very heavily N university where most people seem to be xNxJs. Maybe things change once you leave academia. Maybe if you hung out with "normal" people in high school instead of the geeks, you'd meet more Sensors. Either way, this forum is making me realize that I'm outside the norm in more ways than I had previously thought.
    So I think it's good to have various types represented, but ... I'm not losing a LOT of sleep over this inequity. What are we going to do -- start bussing in ISFJs and ESFPs from across the 'net?
    I like the sound of that! Equal opportunity for Sensors!!
    I faintly remember you choosing not to do it... I mean, whatever... it is what it is. I'm sure it would have been at least as good as anything else that might be written. I don't think anything ever was, though.

    If it means anything, the first draft of something is typically crap anyway, but this is why we have a community here. I just think, as far as writing descriptions goes, the first goal is to get all the right content tossed into the pot; the second and later drafts just try to make sense of it and weave it together.
    That's a good point. If the topic comes up again, I'll write a draft of something.

    I think this is what was holding me back before, to be perfectly honest.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #122
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I keep hearing things like this from Ns on the forum, and it always amazes and confuses me, because I am so utterly surrounded by Ns. I have so few Sensor friends, and my extended family is only half Sensor (I think; I have an aunt and an uncle who are Sensors but besides that I think everyone's an NT or an NF). So I keep hearing people talking about how it's a Sensor world out there, and "us Ns have to stick together", and that sort of thing, but to me it's always been an N world. I grew up having to adapt to communication breakdowns between me and my N parents, and somehow attracted almost exclusively N friends all through school, and now I'm at a very heavily N university where most people seem to be xNxJs. Maybe things change once you leave academia. Maybe if you hung out with "normal" people in high school instead of the geeks, you'd meet more Sensors. Either way, this forum is making me realize that I'm outside the norm in more ways than I had previously thought.
    +1. I have more N friends than S ones, by my best guess. Not intentionally, but probably mostly because we're all university-educated and Ns probably gravitate to that at higher rates than Ss.

    I also wonder sometimes how much culture plays a role. Maybe some countries or regions have more SJs (or otherwise) than others. I'd bet that cities have more Ns than small towns do.
    -end of thread-

  3. #123
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not trying to compete at "who has it worst", just pointing out that N is only one of MANY factors that influence how "at home" you feel in the world.
    I think you're both right to some degree. I mean, it's not like the only Goth people, or piercing people, or tattoo people out there -- or people trying to get some individuality for themselves -- are N. I just think it's about different things. There are various reasons why someone might be misunderstood or see someone as weird. And I'd agree that ISTP women are not "conventional women" who typically are expected to emote, and that you would feel isolated at least a bit because of that.

    For me, it was still the N thing, though. i didn't realize until I'd been separated for a few years that my in-laws never actually really understood me. in fact, they had misread a lot of my INTP style behavior (the aloofness in particular, which they saw as disinterest rather than me trying not to step on their toes -- but also the lack of emotional expression as not caring rather than as trying to remain balanced and fair) as something negative, and had merely tolerated me as best as they could because I was related to them and thus society required it of them. I had actually understood them far more than they had understood me. They understood their own children (they were all ISFJs or ISTJs), and so I had been an enigma. I also wasn't really understood by my own parents, mainly because of the N thing, even if in many other ways I had emulated more S style behaviors to make them happy. (It managed to work with my mom.) Once I did something they did not understand, it resulted in a huge rift in our relationship that might never be fixed, and I realize now they never got me either.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #124
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    +1. I have more N friends than S ones, by my best guess. Not intentionally, but probably mostly because we're all university-educated and Ns probably gravitate to that at higher rates than Ss.
    That would make sense, I think. It would also explain why all my SJ friends break those stereotypes, because, since they're smart people, they're capable of thinking abstractly, and maybe it's not hard for them to see practical applications to theoretical knowledge, like it would be if you were a Sensor and not all that bright.

    I also wonder sometimes how much culture plays a role. Maybe some countries or regions have more SJs (or otherwise) than others.
    That would be VERY interesting to know! And it would be interesting to see how their behavior adapts, depending on the region. It would be interesting to see gender differences by type/region, too.

    Edit: I wonder if most Sensors on this forum have been through life experiences like that, i.e. having loads of N friends or N family members, and therefore knowing how to communicate with them. Based on Jennifer's stories about her friends and family, it seems like a lot of Sensors grow up not knowing how to communicate with iNtuitives, and not caring to find out. But -- depending on the type! -- I always knew, growing up. Honestly, I'm better at understanding NFs than I am SPs. SPs are a mystery to me sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I also wasn't really understood by my own parents, mainly because of the N thing, even if in many other ways I had emulated more S style behaviors to make them happy.
    What exactly are S-style behaviors? I ask because I tend to separate Se behaviors from Si behaviors, and I do the same with N; for example, it ought to be pretty obvious from how I behave on the forum, that I understand Ne humor (and can participate, since I have decent Ne too), but that an INTJ can troll his or her Ni at me for hours before I understand what's going on.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #125
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    For me, it was still the N thing, though. i didn't realize until I'd been separated for a few years that my in-laws never actually really understood me. in fact, they had misread a lot of my INTP style behavior (the aloofness in particular, which they saw as disinterest rather than me trying not to step on their toes -- but also the lack of emotional expression as not caring rather than as trying to remain balanced and fair) as something negative, and had merely tolerated me as best as they could because I was related to them and thus society required it of them. I had actually understood them far more than they had understood me. They understood their own children (they were all ISFJs or ISTJs), and so I had been an enigma. I also wasn't really understood by my own parents, mainly because of the N thing, even if in many other ways I had emulated more S style behaviors to make them happy. (It managed to work with my mom.) Once I did something they did not understand, it resulted in a huge rift in our relationship that might never be fixed, and I realize now they never got me either.
    I don't want to turn personal experience into a debate, and I understand that being N would make it harder for a child to be understood by S parents (I feel similarly about my N parents, but that's beside the point).

    I do want to point out that the bolded is IxTx, not S, and is something that's been pointed out about me by many people (and caused quite a lot of trouble and misunderstanding in my life). It's even worse if you're visibly female and expected to emote, etc.
    -end of thread-

  6. #126
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    And just what are they? My point was that they're only what we say they are as someone identified as N or S. When I identified as an N, anything I decided to declare as being a sign of N would have been accepted. Why? Because none of this has any referent outside of itself. It's self-referential.
    I think it's better to avoid definitions for now, but I'll work with what I've detected. Let's take this thread, for example. Qlip mentioned Ti literalisms, but, evidently, that's Ne-fueled Ti. That's a form of humor that, ime, almost no sensor seems to understand, much less appreciate.

    And humor style is just a minor fraction of the big picture - we're talking about cognitive preferences, and those affect the focus of pretty much everything people write/speak and read/listen. That's part of why sensors are much more likely to misinterpret what I say. So I need to modify my go-to communication style in order to avoid misunderstandings. While that's not a stimulant thing to do, in a world full of sensors we eventually get used to it.

    But in a place dominated by intuitives we don't need to adapt much, as our words won't lose much meaning to people who have similar cognitive preferences. Which is quite... liberating.
    Last edited by Rasofy; 08-28-2012 at 08:50 PM. Reason: .

  7. #127
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I don't want to turn personal experience into a debate, and I understand that being N would make it harder for a child to be understood by S parents (I feel similarly about my N parents, but that's beside the point).
    Would you like to trade parents? I'll give you a discount, mine are an older model most likely.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #128
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    To those individuals who are hauling a wooden cross on their back, and dabbing the blood on their scalp where a crown of thorns now rests, here's an old post from one N to another N:

    Newsflash for you:

    In your example, what happens is that a group of apparently misfit and "misunderstood" people group together and label themselves as Intuitive, and the "others" as Sensors, using "feel-good" 'reasoning' to justify the traumatic "Us vs. Them" attitude -- that's MBTI.

    I'm very, very sure that you can't tell me that you wouldn't consider being a Sensor if only Sensors were described better in the literature than Intuitives. What happens to your beloved Intuition then? Don't come up with half-baked excuses about how you are 100% N and how others who have judged you or treated [you] badly are S, that's just a simple distinction in your polarizing mind. You cry me a fucking river now, but you're pretty much a perfect embodiment of the judgmentalism described in the OP.

    It's fabricated excuse to antagonize others, I'll tell you that. I can see you're bitter from the things you've lived through, but it doesn't justify what you're doing.
    It's those types of posts that I miss reading the most.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's those types of posts that I miss reading the most.
    Jesus God. Really. All one has to do to be commonly understood is.. you know, use words properly.

  10. #130
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    In what areas do they use this excellence in school, and high IQ? Part of the issue with that description, I guess, is that people associate disinterest in book learning with lack of intelligence, lack of critical or abstract thinking skill, and inability (as opposed to unwillingness) to spend a lot of time thinking philosophically -- even though that isn't necessarily true.
    Based on my limited experience - Incredibly good memory. Strong natural interpersonal skills. Ability to identify simple solutions to problems. Practical and grounded. Logical. Organized. More left brained (I know this isn't really accurate but you get the idea). Disciplined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You said:

    This has a couple of problems.

    1. Like @EJCC said, all academic learning involves theory and abstraction. So to say that SJs like to learn in school, but they don't like to learn theory makes no sense. The description I quoted recognizes this fact and at least has the sense to be consistent about it.
    2. You suggest that learning new things is stressful for SJs.

    And all of this was in an effort to make the original description that I quoted seem more innocuous. You said "it doesn't say they don't like learning or school." Well, but it does. It literally and specifically says, "ISFJs learn best by doing, rather than by reading about something in a book, or applying theory...Traditional methods of higher education, which require a lot of theorizing and abstraction, are likely to be a chore for the ISFJ."

    So I don't know what you're on about.
    It's called having a good memory and a logical ability to solve problems. They are good at listening and don't overcomplicate things.

    What I believe is stressful to ISFJs can be best illustrated by an example. A type like an INTJ likes to be constantly challenged by new problems and conquer new ground. They are invigorated by it. Routine is boring. They love to DO things they haven't done before. It's challenging. An ISFJ would prefer not to live that way. They would prefer to DO things they have experience doing rather than have to re-invent the wheel or constantly being thrown into a new situation where they have to do something they have never done before. A simple example - an ISFJ might not mind balancing the checkbook. The INTJ might like it the first couple of times because it is challenging but become incredibly bored with it after that point and not want to do it anymore. There is nothing wrong with either one though I would say the ISFJ has an easier time with everyday life because much of it is routine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think the fact that many Sensors aren't drawn to their type descriptions is quite telling. People tend to like hearing what their type is good at (I know I do), because it's like tailored praise - it should incite pride in your own abilities. But, if a ISTJ doesn't think it's flattering to be described as organized and efficient, then we need to do better.
    What makes you think Intuitives are any more drawn to their type descriptions? None of us like to listen to ourselves talk or see ourselves on video. It's a little analogous. Though it may in fact be true, I am not convinced there is a substantive difference in the quality of the type descriptions or functions for that matter in high quality materials. When I am talking about high quality, I am referring to books. I agree with Mal+ that the books are much better than what is online. It's how the publishing companies make money.

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