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  1. #91
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So that's a thing, eh? I knew it was true, but it's still a bit of a surprise to see agreement.

    True story: I once looked up life expectancy for males of my generation and nation. I mentioned it one time in conversation and kidded, saying I was looking for a timetable, but it's actually true.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #92
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Ive always wondered about this. What is complex afterall? Is it a person who doesnt know what they want and so revels in their inconsistancy, allowing others to perceive a depth that may or may not be there? Or is it those who go out of their way to appear different and to appear mysterious so as to fit a preconceived notion of what complexity is?
    I envision this as not so much revealing inconsistency, I feel like that would be annoying and picked up easily by an Ne dom, or anyone listening really, but having the inner world remain consistent.. just with more rungs or seemingly out of place framework that actually does fit. Appearance of and trying to be mysterious seems more like lying and not nearly as interesting as genuine.

    I do wonder if what is appealing in complexity is merely what is most obviously complex. Would you notice the quiet but hard working individual in the background, who seems to be dull but who has never been probed upon his or her inner world because people were too busy looking for the obviously different, rather than the subtly different?

    I think people enjoy a mystery when it is out in front of them, paraded like a taunt. When it comes to those on the sidelines, the forgotten ones, the ones who are truely a mystery; no one notices.
    I don't think that's true, I think many people tend to gravitate toward others in general based on what pulls them, and it's different for everyone. Those on the sidelines have their people that notice them as well. For myself, I don't really like blatant, I prefer subtle, so many times I feel like the ones I do notice are the quieter ones.

    As to being an Ni dom, I suspect my (7 years old) son is (but I sort of dislike attributing anything like that yet).. the other day he asked me if I knew what it was like "to fall down into my head and have such a hard time leaving that my eyes stopped working." It made me think of Ni, and I did identify with it.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  3. #93
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Being INJ in a lot of ways means being dissatisfied. Persistent vision of potential future, usually emphasizing change and growth, puts one automatically at odds with mundane realities. You care for tomorrow rather than today and you sacrifice your time to it. It might be the INPs that are better at serenity.

    Damn straight.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #94
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's a worldview. Everything is understood in terms of cause and effect, as opposed to what things are and what kind of thing is something (archetypes, Si). Implied in "cause and effect" are all the dynamics to which everything is subject. It ends up being classified as "intuition" and "mystical" because it isn't concrete the way archetypes of things are concrete. One is stuck waving one's hands and saying, "isn't it obvious that it works that way?" and wondering why it isn't obvious to everyone else.

    The intuition can seem even more mystical and magical because thinking in terms of "cause and effect" makes it obvious when cause and effect are inconsistent: think of Sherlock Holmes mysteries, where the protagonist simply knows that something is true or untrue because the supposed causes are missing effects, or effects are present that imply unmentioned causes.

    For an ENFP, Ne is the leading function. It deals more with out-of-context thinking - finding relationships between ideas in different contexts/situations. Ni necessarily explores within a single context at a time: it discerns which causes/effect belong in a context. Ni isn't concerned with the "things" in the context: a shop isn't identified by its name, but rather by what it sells, and more specifically, in terms of what the Ni dom would consider buying from it.

    So if you think of "cause and effect" as worldlines, as strings, Ni sees these flows naturally, without having to think hard. Ni memorizes how these flows flow. Then in spite of having a "bad memory for details" (in Si terms), if you give an Ni dom a few pieces of information, Ni immediately starts seeing how the pieces of information flow and fit (or don't fit) with each other. If Ni already has a lot of stored information (of flows and a few specific details), new pieces of information immediately fit or don't fit, producing the intuitive insight. The new information has to align with the current flows: if it doesn't fit, it's wrong (obviously so, to Ni, which can make for difficult arguments and accusations of stubbornness), and if it does fit, it immediately points to new truths that aren't at all obvious to those who aren't thinking of the world in terms of these flows.

    Also, because they are flows, cause and effect, many of the insights of Ni tend to be remarkably accurate predictions about what will happen in the future. Just as often, like in the Sherlock Holmes example, they are remarkably accurate troubleshooting, seeing the cause that must have occurred (where to Ti, the logic for such a conclusion is rather incomplete).

    Anyway, that's pretty much it. All of the mystery of Ni just has to do with its wordlessness. We have no words for the flows we see, and those flows are so obvious to Ni, it doesn't occur to Ni doms that no one else sees them, thus Ni self-descriptions of thought processes tend to be, um, rather poor and not very useful descriptions.

    Per usual, I totally agree with uumlau’s take on Ni.

    To expound a little: I was just trying to describe getting angry to someone the other day. I agree that some piece of information will stand out immediately as being incongruent, but it’s never immediately clear why it stands out. It creates that ‘white noise’ we’ve brought up before, silent and distracting alarms go off. I’ll just know something is off. Sometimes it’s an isolated incident that fades into oblivion, others times a repeating pattern will surface and the ‘white noise’ gets louder and more distracting each time. In line with what Kalach wrote- I think we get stymied by the question “Okay, so am I disappointed someone isn’t adhering to an ‘ideal’ I’m carrying or is this some bona fide breach of respect?” That’s when, as INFJs have repeatedly said in this forum, we’re trying to decide if what we’re feeling is reasonable. We (or, many of us) are loathe to impose our own ideal on others. Sometimes I’ll come to the conclusion that what took me off guard was simply an ‘okay’ behavior that doesn’t seem ideal to me- in which case it sorta fades into oblivion (and I'll make the mental post it notes about that person having slightly different values/expectations, and just know to expect the same from them henceforth). But other times it just lingers while I try to figure it out and anger might not hit until years later; or maybe, it’s like the anger hits right away but it can take years to figure out that it is reasonable anger (that anyone might feel- ‘ideal’ or no). I can be in the shower, or doing some mundane task, and it’ll hit me- years later- “wow…..it was totally reasonable of me to feel angry!” And it’s such a relief because the ‘white noise’ I had about it (which doesn’t go away entirely until the puzzle is solved) finally stops. Either way, this seems like a real problem for INFJs- other types seem to have a better handle on knowing right away whether someone else’s behavior is reasonable to view as disrespectful or whatnot.

    Or maybe it isn’t even anger. I’ve brought up before I had an iNFJ friend who would get angry (for no apparent reason) and say things that made absolutely no sense. This went on for years until I finally lost it and told her flat out I needed her to tell me what was making her angry- she went on this tirade about how I was doing things to “get attention”. Though it was utterly bizarre to me that this is what she believed- it suddenly made sense of years worth of her strange behavior towards me. It was a huge relief for the incongruent details to slide into place. There’s just a confusion that lingers until things make sense.[eta:] I let her know that she was wrong about my intentions (“getting attention”- I’m fairly certain she’s e3, and so I guess it makes sense that’s what she’d project). But the main thing is that it was hard to have a friend getting consistently angry and I had to understand why it was happening. I’m fine with her getting angry about something I’m not actually doing (that much is completely beyond my control), but it haunted me until interpersonal ‘cause and effect’ made sense. It’s like dropping a ball and having it veer to the left as it falls- when something unexpected keeps happening with someone, I need to understand why or it’s wholly distracting. So long as I don’t understand it, there’s a feeling like ANYTHING could start veering to the left so I need to understand why and nip it in the bud as soon as possible. <-Part of that might be e5 influence too, though.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 08-28-2012 at 05:29 PM. Reason: fix grammar
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #95
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    I envision this as not so much revealing inconsistency, I feel like that would be annoying and picked up easily by an Ne dom, or anyone listening really, but having the inner world remain consistent.. just with more rungs or seemingly out of place framework that actually does fit. Appearance of and trying to be mysterious seems more like lying and not nearly as interesting as genuine.



    I don't think that's true, I think many people tend to gravitate toward others in general based on what pulls them, and it's different for everyone. Those on the sidelines have their people that notice them as well. For myself, I don't really like blatant, I prefer subtle, so many times I feel like the ones I do notice are the quieter ones.

    As to being an Ni dom, I suspect my (7 years old) son is (but I sort of dislike attributing anything like that yet).. the other day he asked me if I knew what it was like "to fall down into my head and have such a hard time leaving that my eyes stopped working." It made me think of Ni, and I did identify with it.
    yeah exactly...

    why affirmative do you assume it's trickery? someone playing at being complex?

    and complexity will read differently to different people.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #96
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    yeah exactly...

    why affirmative do you assume it's trickery? someone playing at being complex?

    and complexity will read differently to different people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    I envision this as not so much revealing inconsistency, I feel like that would be annoying and picked up easily by an Ne dom, or anyone listening really, but having the inner world remain consistent.. just with more rungs or seemingly out of place framework that actually does fit. Appearance of and trying to be mysterious seems more like lying and not nearly as interesting as genuine.

    I don't think that's true, I think many people tend to gravitate toward others in general based on what pulls them, and it's different for everyone. Those on the sidelines have their people that notice them as well. For myself, I don't really like blatant, I prefer subtle, so many times I feel like the ones I do notice are the quieter ones.
    Well ill explain my position. It is only from anecdotal and personal evidence, but ive always been odd and on the fringe, even when I appear to fit in...I dont. However I would not call myself mysterious or complex, as far as I can tell most people are not mysterious or complex either, but this is only based off those I know intimately.

    However ive never noticed any gravitational pull from anyone towards me or vice versa. I suppose im just bitter, but my experience has been like a piece of bait on a line; I have to thrust myself into the pirahna pool of social interaction. I always have to fight for any kind of attention, that's if I actually desire any.

    Then these 'mysterious people' pop up with their 'complexity' and im so sidelined that I may as well not bother at all. It seems to me that unique and special are words applied to people so as to keep the dregs and subordinated, (such as myself), under heel so that those touched by 'mystery' can have their fun.
    You see the sad reality of the world around us is that we believe in fairness when it really only exists inside our heads and then through our actions because we wish for it to happen. But this produces such trite mentalities as 'there is someone for everyone'....actually there isnt. I know so many people who lived lives of misery and died alone, no friends, family, other relatives or even lovers.

    The truth is you either sparkle or you dont, something seems to be...alive within those who sparkle and they become the major players in the stage of life. But me? Im barely a bit part...Crowd member #6....ok you did your part...now exit stage left....

    ...curtains.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #97
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    That is quite the sad story affirmative but I think you're misunderstanding.

    There is no one definition of different or complex it's defined by ones perception.

    Sparkly to me may be very dull to you.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #98
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Per usual, I totally agree with uumlau’s take on Ni.

    To expound a little: I was just trying to describe getting angry to someone the other day. I agree that some piece of information will stand out immediately as being incongruent, but it’s never immediately clear why it stands out. It creates that ‘white noise’ we’ve brought up before, silent and distracting alarms go off. I’ll just know something is off. Sometimes it’s an isolated incident that fades into oblivion, others times a repeating pattern will surface and the ‘white noise’ gets louder and more distracting each time. In line with what Kalach wrote- I think we get stymied by the question “Okay, so are we disappointed someone isn’t adhering to an ‘ideal’ I’m carrying or is this some bona fide breach of respect?” That’s when, as INFJs have repeatedly said in this forum, we’re trying to decide if what we’re feeling is reasonable. We (or, many of us) are loathe to impose our own ideal on others. Sometimes I’ll come to the conclusion that what took me off guard was simply an ‘okay’ behavior that doesn’t seem ideal to me- in which case it sorta fades into oblivion (and I'll make the mental post it notes about that person having slightly different values/expectations, and just know to expect the same from them henceforth). But other times it just lingers while I try to figure it out and anger might not hit until years later; or maybe, it’s like the anger hits right away but it can take years to figure out that it is reasonable anger (that anyone might feel- ‘ideal’ or no). I can be in the shower, or doing some mundane task, and it’ll hit me- years later- “wow…..it was totally reasonable of me to feel angry!” And it’s such a relief because the ‘white noise’ I had about it (which doesn’t go away entirely until the puzzle is solved) finally stops. Either way, this seems like a real problem for INFJs- other types seem to have a better handle on knowing right away whether someone else’s behavior is reasonable to view as disrespectful or whatnot.

    Or maybe it isn’t even anger. I’ve brought up before I had an iNFJ friend who would get angry (for no apparent reason) and say things that made absolutely no sense. This went on for years until I finally lost it and told her flat out I needed her to tell me what was making her angry- she went on this tirade about how I was doing things to “get attention”. Though it was utterly bizarre to me that this is what she believed- it suddenly made sense of years worth of her strange behavior towards me. It was a huge relief for the incongruent details to slide into place. There’s just a confusion that lingers until things make sense.[eta:] I let her know that she was wrong about my intentions (“getting attention”- I’m fairly certain she’s e3, and so I guess it makes sense that’s what she’d project). But the main thing is that it was hard to have a friend getting consistently angry and I had to understand why it was happening. I’m fine with her getting angry about something I’m not actually doing (that much is completely beyond my control), but it haunted me until interpersonal ‘cause and effect’ made sense. It’s like dropping a ball and having it veer to the left as it falls- when something unexpected keeps happening with someone, I need to understand why or it’s wholly distracting. So long as I don’t understand it, there’s a feeling like ANYTHING could start veering to the left so I need to understand why and nip it in the bud as soon as possible. <-Part of that might be e5 influence too, though.
    This rings a lot of bells! To me it doesn't really matter if the behaviour bothering me stops or not. I just need to understand what is going on so that I can make a proper decision about how I'm going to respond. Just as knowing someone's intentions seems to make all the difference for some people, for me, knowing the why behind people's behaviour gives me context to feel comfortable making some kind of definitive judgement.

    I think this is one of the reasons why I probably don't seem judgemental (from an outside perspective) towards people I don't understand. It's not that I don't actually hold opinions about their way of interacting with others or the choices they make, but I feel like I need enough background information to feel that I am being accurate or fair before I form a strong opinion that I will stand by.

    I don't know if this is a problem for any other Ni doms, but I have a recognized a pattern in myself of being drawn to people whom I can't figure out immediately. In a romantic sense, this is not a good thing, as it often indicates (even on a subconscious level) behaviours that are inconsistant. Inconsistant behaviour often comes from deep insecurities or difficulty being vulnerable and authentic. Instead of openly being themselves, the person develops a kind of stronger persona to cover up those fears, but as they get closer to someone bits of their real self pop through now and then. For this reason, I'm really glad that I did not get married in my 20s, as I think I would likely have chosen someone who outwardly appeared very confident and in charge, but inwardly was not and with that comes a wealth of hurtful behaviour, mixed messages, and poor communication.

    I don't know if this is something Ni users are prone to, but I think that especially once I have grown to trust someone and new mental stickies are now at odds with the initial mental stickies created, I find it difficult to decide which to give most weight to. The slow developing anger that comes from seeing observable pattern, having external validation that those blips of white noise were actually warning bells, and finally having enough context and background emerge happens a long ways down the road from maybe when it should have.

  9. #99
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    How can people really think in terms of anything else than cause and effect though? The only thing constant is change, so giving something a permanent meaning isn't going to remain that way in the future. Surely everyone has experienced change.
    I think it's fascinating that change is seen as a constant to you. Obviously as a Pe dom I live in a perpetual state of change, but I don't perceive it so much as a constant but more like the "environment". It's like an invisible constant to me... I guess I sort of remove it from the equation. I don't look at it as part of the equation... it seems like Ni/Se uses time as the operators in the mathematical equation. For my thought process, everything happens "within" the time changing. So I focus on constant definitions that remain static through time, like "love", which is a state and not a process, or "happiness", which again is a state. I like "light" and "dark", which are states. I guess I think and idealize mostly in "feeling-states". Time itself is a feeling-state to me as well, more than something that factors in. It's just another element, one that happens to swim along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    haha well for fun i read something on esfp just now and i do relate to a lot of it...except...i unfortunately do not live very much in the present at all and no one who knows me would confuse me for someone who is aware of their surroundings! haha unfortunately...no really it is unfortunate. i envy those that can just be in the moment and experience all the lovely sensation of it all...i truly do

    the point of thread really was not my questioning it...i just truly wonder what it feels like to be a ni dom...or rather just how ni feels differently than ne. i also wonder why i feel like i relate to it in some ways.

    and i wonder if other ne users do too

    but very interesting thoughts kalach thanks.
    I associate with Ni thoughts often, even though I don't always understand how they have come about. I think Ne-Fi often ends up at a similar place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I ask (and not really specifically about just those two examples, but) because you often appear to be talking with concepts in mind. It's not that you show off the concepts. They're background. And kind of secret background. That may or may not be done cooking.

    Seems Ni. As opposed, say, to Ne (or Si).
    It occurs to me that Fi - at least my Fi - needs "cooking time" too. I need time to let feeling-things mull over and coalesce. I don't often know how I feel about something in totality until a while after, when everything has swam into one and I can see the big picture from farther away. I can't see it very well as a whole when I'm mired in emotion, so I have to let that fade first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you handcuff an Ne person to a stove and demand they tell the truth, they'll say they comprehend externally. For Ne, the meaning and content is "out there". For the person, there definitely will be something they draw inside and reflect upon. I'm not sure if they'll draw comprehension inside. They'll draw in the experience itself, uncomplicated by interpretation. Maybe.
    For me, if it's truth, it's going to be coherent both inside and outside. For me, truth is when things resonate both internal and external. There's no such thing as an external truth without internal resonance - that's just a partial perception. There's no such thing as an internal truth without external resonance - that's just a partial ideation. Truth doesn't need interpretation, though you can interpret it endlessly and it will just iterate itself again and again. Truth just is. Or is not, as the case may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Being INJ in a lot of ways means being dissatisfied. Persistent vision of potential future, usually emphasizing change and growth, puts one automatically at odds with mundane realities. You care for tomorrow rather than today and you sacrifice your time to it. It might be the INPs that are better at serenity.
    I feel the same, actually. Could be dom N or could be elements of e6 that make me more future-focused and negative than other Ne doms.

  10. #100
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It occurs to me that Fi - at least my Fi - needs "cooking time" too. I need time to let feeling-things mull over and coalesce. I don't often know how I feel about something in totality until a while after, when everything has swam into one and I can see the big picture from farther away. I can't see it very well as a whole when I'm mired in emotion, so I have to let that fade first.
    I'd write that up as Si. Or more exactly, the active process of making an inner determination happens in a context of the process of inner perception, and since you've identified as ENFP that perception is Si, goddammit! But both of them, Si and Ni, synthesize content, which actually I don't know if anyone's been able to talk about clearly, like, ever. What is the synthesis and how does it happen? Thus, interestingly, you said:

    I think it's fascinating that change is seen as a constant to you. Obviously as a Pe dom I live in a perpetual state of change, but I don't perceive it so much as a constant but more like the "environment". It's like an invisible constant to me... I guess I sort of remove it from the equation. I don't look at it as part of the equation... it seems like Ni/Se uses time as the operators in the mathematical equation. For my thought process, everything happens "within" the time changing. So I focus on constant definitions that remain static through time, like "love", which is a state and not a process, or "happiness", which again is a state. I like "light" and "dark", which are states. I guess I think and idealize mostly in "feeling-states". Time itself is a feeling-state to me as well, more than something that factors in. It's just another element, one that happens to swim along.
    Within the bolded you have the names of concepts. That it is a conceptual scheme does not tell us whether it is Ni or Si content. Si, it would seem, does concepts too. But, presumably, the concept schemes are grounded in accumulated history. If asked to produce exemplars, there will be stories to tell. (I'm just making this up, incidentally, but it seems true.) I *think* that while there can be names for the concepts that wander around in Ni, those concepts tend to be considerably more made up than those you find in the real world. The schemes are personal. Surely this should be true of Si schemes as well, but I think I want to try claiming that Si is so much more directly related to real, nameable things that..... I"M MORE SPECIAL! IF I WANT TO GO GROUNDING IDEAS I CHOOSE ACTION AND ACCIDENT! THAT'S HOW MY IDEAS GET THEIR NAMES!

    I'm not sure if the above presents the key difference between Si and Ni or just obscures Ni production (all the while being overly sure of Si production). Let's move on...

    For me, if it's truth, it's going to be coherent both inside and outside. For me, truth is when things resonate both internal and external. There's no such thing as an external truth without internal resonance - that's just a partial perception. There's no such thing as an internal truth without external resonance - that's just a partial ideation. Truth doesn't need interpretation, though you can interpret it endlessly and it will just iterate itself again and again. Truth just is. Or is not, as the case may be.
    CHEATER!!!! CHEATER!!! With the bolded you privilege external perception over internal. The outer world provides the real check on schemes and concepts. THAT'S PREFERENTIALIST!

    And "Truth doesn't need interpretation..."? OMG!

    Pronounce it with me: OH. EM. GEEE!



    ETA a point of clarification: where I say "truth" up there, I'm really saying, or naming a concept of, "the outer world". (Calling the outer world "truth", or the source of truths, is me being preferentialist.) Maybe to be INJ is to insist on interpreting the outer world. (Like Zeeb and fidelia were pointing out above too.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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