Ti Literalisms

[The Outsider]

God, these all sound like really, really bad jokes. Are you people actually proud of this shit? I wouldn't want to admit to it even if I were guilty of doing it.

The only time literalizing a metaphor could be funny is if you turned it into a sexual joke. And even then it would have to be self-conscious or ironic, which can be grating if not done properly.

Please don't blame this on Ti.

 

[CzeCze]

INTJs are much more prone to literalism. I find on the forum at least that satire, sarcasm, joking, and situational context have gone WAY above the heads of some INTJs in the past and it makes me go . I think Ne helps INTPs a lot. I don't know RL INTPs who are literal like this.

Wait were the INTPs joking?

 

[Totenkindly]

INTJs are much more prone to literalism. I find on the forum at least that satire, sarcasm, joking, and situational context have gone WAY above the heads of some INTJs in the past and it makes me go . I think Ne helps INTPs a lot. I don't know RL INTPs who are literal like this.

Wait were the INTPs joking?

If I give the literal response to something, I'm always joking; occasionally, though, if someone straight-faces a joke without any cues that they're kidding, I will fall for their joke and give a literal response to it.

God, these all sound like really, really bad jokes. Are you people actually proud of this shit? I wouldn't want to admit to it even if I were guilty of doing it.

The only time literalizing a metaphor could be funny is if you turned it into a sexual joke. And even then it would have to be self-conscious or ironic, which can be grating if not done properly.

Please don't blame this on Ti.

It's a function combo, if anything.

Still, you can't ignore silly INTP cliches that are very much true, such as the fixation on MPFC.

 

[Red Herring]

Still, you can't ignore silly INTP cliches that are very much true, such as the fixation on MPFC.

Yay, go Mill Park!!!!!!!

 

[Totenkindly]

Yay, go Mill Park!!!!!!!

Thank goodness someone knew exactly what I meant.

http://www.mpfc.org.au/

2012 NFL Junior Best and Fairest results.
Posted by mpjfc in Achievements | 0 comments
The Northern Football League hosted the 2012 Junior Presentation Night on Monday, August 13, in front of more than 300 people at Planet shakers in Lower Plenty.

Compared by Gold 104.3 announcer Craig Huggins, the awards night was held in the lead up to the junior Grand Finals, with all 24 premiership cups on display ahead of Sunday’s premiership deciders.

In just its second season in the competition, Bundoora Park was awarded the NFL Junior Club of the Year. Other major award winners were Lalor Stars youngster Jasmine Fitzgerald who took out the Lew Hall Players Award, and Eltham’s Kieran Malone who claimed the Northern Knights Under-15 Rookie of the Year.

Demi-Lee Hallett was awarded the Youth Girls best and fairest in her very first season of football, meanwhile Luke Harvey claimed the Most Promising Junior Umpire, and Martin Rodger the Junior Umpire of the Year. It was one of two awards won by Martin on the night, with the young star also claiming third-place in the under-16 Red best and fairest award.

Congratulations to Mitch Andrews (Under 13 Blue) and Christian Janev (Under 16′s Blue) who were both invited to the NFL Junior Presentation Night on Monday night. Mitch won the under 13′s Best and Fairest and Christian took home 2nd Best and Fairest.

 

[MacGuffin]

I've been spending some time with a couple of INTPs, and I'm amused by what I can only assume are [amusing] Ti prompted conflicts with metaphor. I thought I'd start a thread hoping others would pitch in.

My friend, reading the lyrics to a Japanese song, laughed at "I will continue to run after my last breath" and responded, "So, she's a zombie?".

Same friend, same song: "I stand in the lonely rain", response: "How can rain be lonely?"

A young INTP, watching 'Dr Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog' remarks, "Don't they notice that they're suddenly singing? Musicals are weird."

Aren't these jokes? Maybe not the last one, because that is a legitimate criticism of musicals, but the other two are things I'd totally say for funsies.

 

[Qlip]

Aren't these jokes? Maybe not the last one, because that is a legitimate criticism of musicals, but the other two are things I'd totally say for funsies.

Maybe, probably. There was no rimshot. It doesn't really matter, though. Even if, it's a particular type of joke that seems to more easily occur to a particular type of person.

 

[MacGuffin]

Maybe, probably. There was no rimshot. It doesn't really matter, though. Even if, it's a particular type of joke that seems to more easily occur to a particular type of person.

Good, now let's get back to musicals.

Don't they wonder where the fucking music comes from???

 

[Ginkgo]

Are you people actually proud of this shit?

Only when it's too big to flush.

 

[Salomé]

I've been spending some time with a couple of INTPs, and I'm amused by what I can only assume are [amusing] Ti prompted conflicts with metaphor. I thought I'd start a thread hoping others would pitch in.

My friend, reading the lyrics to a Japanese song, laughed at "I will continue to run after my last breath" and responded, "So, she's a zombie?".

Same friend, same song: "I stand in the lonely rain", response: "How can rain be lonely?"

A young INTP, watching 'Dr Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog' remarks, "Don't they notice that they're suddenly singing? Musicals are weird."

Do you really take literally their "literal" take? Because that probably pleases them no end. Also it would make this thread ironic win.

 

[Qlip]

Do you really take literally their "literal" take? Because that probably pleases them no end. Also it would make this thread ironic win.

I was implying no 'fail'. I just felt there was something very Ti about it and wanted more data. If I had to say what the motivations in the zombie comment. I'd say my friend initially thought the line was ridiculous and incogruent while nearly simultaneously divining the intended meaning. And then in a humorous act of defiance of the illogical universe symbolized by that metaphor decided to make that comment. But, you know.. I'm just guessing.

 

[Randomnity]

To me it seems more like he's saying "this is a really stupid metaphor" than "durr, I don't get metaphors".

I mean come on, lonely rain? You can do better than that. I don't know the context of running after your last breath so I have no idea what that's supposed to be a metaphor for....determination or something?

 

[Totenkindly]

To me it seems more like he's saying "this is a really stupid metaphor" than "durr, I don't get metaphors".

That.

Technically, it's not the rain that is lonely. Hence, it's open to ridicule.

 

[Craft]

You are observing something real and valid. But this is also about Si. I dont know about ISTP's but i sometimes think too much in equations that x can only equal x, else illogicallity. Words are different because they change meaning depending on context or sentence but, in math, 1 will always equal 1, will always mean a single quantity regardless of background or non-verbal data. Thus, transitioned into communication, the literal meaning is the only meaning. It's like the literal meaning is the closest thing to "universal meaning", also related to "universality" and "universal truths" being an intp thing. You could say TiSi's are the "literal guys."

And, no, its not just about joking around. I personally find literal interpretations as humor to be bland and unfunny.

 

[Qlip]

To me it seems more like he's saying "this is a really stupid metaphor" than "durr, I don't get metaphors".

I mean come on, lonely rain? You can do better than that. I don't know the context of running after your last breath so I have no idea what that's supposed to be a metaphor for....determination or something?

That.

Technically, it's not the rain that is lonely. Hence, it's open to ridicule.

I don't evaluate things at all on that level. If a phrase sounds enticingly odd.. like 'I will continue to run after my dying breath', which doesn't actually sound odd at all to me. First, it excites me, because it's new. Then I will continue to dig to find out why something was said the way it was said. Even if it comes down to something like translation error, it tells me something about the process of communication. Or it will say something about the patterns of speech in the original language.

In this case, I'm an old enough hand at Japanese subtitles that the statement is pretty normal for lyrics in a Japanese song. And it alludes to a common Japanese motif that someone's will is so strong that it will complete a final action after it dies. I wouldn't dream about discounting something odd as being stupid, because I feel that I'd be missing out. (This is not a lecture, just highlighting different priorities)

 

[sprinkles]

I remember once my sister wanted some colored pencils, so I gave her some regular old #2 pencils.

She goes "I wanted COLORED pencils"
I replied "They are colored. They are colored yellow."

Internally I was like 'YES! I totally NAILED that one!'
Externally she was quite exasperated.

 

[Salomé]

I was implying no 'fail'. I just felt there was something very Ti about it and wanted more data. If I had to say what the motivations in the zombie comment. I'd say my friend initially thought the line was ridiculous and incogruent while nearly simultaneously divining the intended meaning. And then in a humorous act of defiance of the illogical universe symbolized by that metaphor decided to make that comment. But, you know.. I'm just guessing.

Ok, I'll bite.

*Warning: Long, not funny and very literal answer given below.*

First of all, genuine failure to understand metaphor is a symptom of ASD (or mere stupidity) and not an indicator of type.

Second, I'll take this opportunity to talk about what I'll pretentiously call the "Ti aesthetic" which creates massive misunderstandings about INTPs.
(Disclaimer: I speak metaphorically here, in fact all talk of cognitive functions is metaphorical, however many fail to grasp that).

INTPs are known for their precision, to the point of being "nit-pickers" or "hair-splitters". This isn't a result of a desire for "correctness", (a superficial Fe-flavoured consensus-based judgement). It's because incorrect usage (unless it's subversive) offends our *personal* aesthetic, in the same way that sloppy attire or tacky home decor or the misappropriation of tools might offend the aesthetics of a Se-user.
Both are subjective judgements about impersonal/objective standards.

In the case of the latter, the (genuine) discomfort might be produced by the clashing of incompatible colours and styles. In sensitive people this can induce feelings of nausea or disgust. INTPs have an analogous aesthetic which operates in the realm of ideas. When you hear an NTP wax lyrical about the beauty or elegance of a formula, model or solution to a problem, you get a glimpse of what I'm talking about. The standard rhetoric about INTPs being obsessed by Truth, is not the whole story. What we call Truth, is anything which resonates with this inner aesthetic (the essence of what Keats wrote on his Grecian Urn). Everything concrete merely reflects the perfection of the Ideal Form (in a Platonic sense). "Beauty" is a measure of the extent to which it approximates this ideal.

Fi-users are similar (which is why they often understand us) but the domain of interest (personal + subjective) is different.

This kind of beauty overwhelms us and seeking out such beautiful experiences, drives us. This is what characterises most mathematicians and physicists: a childlike sense of wonder and awe at the hidden beauty of implicate order. It isn't a world everyone can appreciate so they write such individuals off as weirdos, especially when they frequently fail to pay attention to things in what most consider to be the "real" world.

Conversely, when Ti-users get irritated by the abuse of logic (as some of us have recently with greenfairy) or the abuse of language (e.g. sloppy or cliched metaphors), it is because it can produce an analog of the nausea and disgust of the regular aesthete (sometimes literally!).

INTPs delight in metaphor. Any Ne user must, since Ne plays in the world of metaphor; in the space which connects and synthesises one realm of thought with another. In fact, metaphor/analog is the main way we reach new insights (e.g. Einstein's sub-c train; the way House uses metaphor both to reach diagnoses and to explain what's going on to the "idiots" around him: classic Ne + Ti).

Critical application of Ne + Ti is the way many over-literal abuses of metaphor to model real phenomena (aka false analogies) are undone. "Turtles all the way down" can be seen as either taking a metaphor too literally, or using one to expose the absurdity of unfounded beliefs. In fact, it's doing one to accomplish the other. Ti excels at following premises through to their logical conclusions. Reductio ad absurdum. In INTPs, this often isn't even a conscious or deliberate process - the absurd conclusion reveals itself immediately, given the premise. We can't help but notice, and frequently can't help but comment (though we don't always "show our working", since we sometimes erroneously assume that what is obvious to us is obvious, per se. Also, showing our working involves writing fuck-awful long, dull posts like this one which are boring to read and even more boring to write). This is what is happening in the first example you give. Your friend is using humour to comment on the absurdity of the metaphor (invoking the image of a zombie in a romantic? song corrupts the aesthetic, it jars, and is therefore mock-worthy).

The second example is deliberately using humour to mock the clumsiness of the image (again, an aesthetic judgement). It is also the way we sometimes deal with the discomfort that any appeal to emotion evokes in us.

The third example is just a comment on the absurdity of the musical, which requires one to "context shift" constantly between a relatively realistic portrayal and a highly stylised, surreal one. This context shift, and the accompanying incongruity, creates an unpleasant sensation in those who are sensitive to inconsistency. Personally, I find it hard to switch Ti off in an effort to suspend disbelief for more than brief periods.
(Curiously, this is not incompatible with the INTP love of sci-fi - if the internal consistency of the created world is maintained.)

I am sure you know all this already.

Far from being flummoxed by it, it is usually the INTP who understands that what is merely metaphor is being applied too literally. As an 8 y/o I can remember having a debate with my ESFJ mother about the use of "the heart" in Christian doctrine (as "the seat of motivation", etc). I was irritated (not confused) that an organ which served no function other than that of a pump, should be imbued with so much significance. I understood that the Bible writer was talking figuratively, yet the adults around me believed in a literal interpretation. (You probably know what I'm talking about better than most, Qlip). I couldn't reason with the ESFJ, but a matter of weeks later, the "official" interpretation was changed, at which point she had no problem adopting it. (Of course, we now know that the heart is considerably more complicated than being just a pump, but didn't at the time).
I won't get into fundamental Creationists other than to say that INTPs are not well-represented amongst such hard-headed literalists.

INTPs are the most scrupulous of the Ne users, because Ti demands precision. This is what makes us critical (in a good way and a not-so good way). However, we are not oblivious to the absurdity of this position ( the meta-absurdity, if you will), which is why we mask much of our criticism / disgust with humour (even from ourselves). The expression "if you didn't laugh, you'd cry" comes to mind. The response to incongruity, to a violation of the Ti aesthetic, is a visceral one, an emotional one. Laughing is more acceptable (both socially, and to ourselves) than alternative ways of dissipating that emotion.

Misunderstandings arise when other types fail to grasp that what might appear to be personal criticism, attack, oneupmanship or just inane nit-picking on the part of the INTP (rarely interested in such essentially [anti]social behaviours) is simply our way of expressing the fact that our personal aesthetic has been violated. It is an impersonal assessment resulting from a highly subjective aesthetic judgment. Of course, expressing this discomfort may, in turn, violate the "social aesthetic" of the Fe-user or the "feeling aesthetic" of Fi-users. Hence the not infrequently ensuing carnage.

tl;dr version: your friends have taste.

 

[Rasofy]

^ Great post.

 

[onemoretime]

A couple of these aren't necessarily being Ti literal as they are being Fe stupid.

 

[Stanton Moore]

So...'Ti doms' suck at poetry...