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  1. #81
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    How can we have an inner world with out experience?


    The experience of the inner world, sure, but I'm using experience to mean experiences outside of your own head on one hand, and then experience to mean content you perceive on the other (as opposed to judging that content after having perceived it). I'm saying Fi is not about something happening to you & having an emotional reaction, and then making a value judgment based on that. That's not what it is.

    and aren't right and wrong, good and bad, just different descriptions of the idea of value?
    Yeah...so? I never said it wasn't.

    I wasn't trying to suggest that there is no reasoning beyond emotion in Fi though only that they give more weight/value to their subjective experiences.
    I'd disagree with that, but I think you're using subjective differently, and that's what I was trying to clarify before.

    You're using subjective to mean "personal" as in concerning humanistic matters, specifically ones which affect that individual, but I'm using it to mean coming from the mind of the individual. Okay here: subjective - 1. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience; existing in the mind. 2. belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought.

    Where a lead Ti might try to strip away as much of their self as possible to get to the facts, a lead Fi wants to determine value and in doing so must relate what they are evaluating to their preexisting opinions of what is valuable. Basically I was under the impression that Ti leads value subjectivity less and Fi leads value it more.
    This may be how you experience it, but in reality that is not Ti. Jung notes that both dominant rationals basically use the self as their gauge. What you're stripping away is what you see as irrelevant aspects of yourself, such as emotion. You will also bring in some external info that you deem relevant, such as facts; but isn't deciding that judgment too? This means Ti is not about using facts to judge; it's deciding how to make sense to begin with. Ti is creating a structure to arrange those facts. Well, Fi creates a structure to arrange humanistic matters, so that they "make sense".

    So yes, a Fi-dom strips away less of that "personal stuff", because it is NOT irrelevant (or not always) in judging value. Whether such things are relevant or not is part of the Fi process though.... But according to Jung, we resist being affected by external things, & so even our own personal experience can be found irrelevant, because it's too specific to an external context, and we're trying to funnel things down to the deepest, fundamental value concept. The inner world is kept "pure" then, so that what happened to me last week doesn't necessarily change how I view whatever category it falls under. I'm able to separate that from my idea of value still.

    As for the bolded, I would say things may be compared to a predetermined concept of what a value category (such as "good") means. Fi is less focused on determining what is good so much as what good means in relation to being human (not just in relation to themselves, but the self is a guinea-pig). Is that clearer?

    I just didn't see your initial description as having much to do with Fi. It sounded like a P style of thinking, where they "see" what is & what is not & comprehend things immediately without a line of reasoning because it's "obvious". Fi types reason; it's not some mysterious answer emerging from a haze.

    "what is" being objective. value being subjective. Neither necessarily better.
    "What is" is not necessarily objective. You can come up with a multitude of systems for labeling & defining things & one may not be more true than the other. Otherwise, all Ti-dom would agree on everything (and it's not just Pe or intelligence making them differ.... it's because Ti, like any function, is subjective, and like any introverted function, the inner world is the focus).

    My point was simply that people often confuse Feeling with Perceiving, and that's what it sounded like you were doing. That may very well describe the OP, but not Fi.... so maybe the OP is not INFP? What you said sounded like ENFP or INFJ to me.

    That doesn't mean I think the OP is Ti-dom either.... but as I said before, there is no point in trying to type someone who is not open to it. You will just make them defensive & stubborn. No offense to the OP - carry on with your self-exploration, please.

  2. #82
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    A process which forms a model of the ideal by exploring concepts in the inner world. The concepts of "good", "bad" & all that is inbetween are defined & refined, so that a gauge is created to hold reality up against.
    Fi is exclusively concerned with the concepts / value judgements of good and bad, in your opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #83
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    You know, sometimes you and Saturned get so NF that I start to think I might be an INTP again. I really don't know how you two do it, but it's actually kind of impressive in some weird way.
    That is Saturned's magical power: She turns anyone placed next to her into a raging INTP by comparison.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #84
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    And that's a good point. This is the kind of thing I'd like people to tell me rather than I'm NF because I like mysticism. You might be on to something.
    Well, I think mysticism is more an N province than a T/F one, although it's "fuzzy" enough around the edges that it makes most T's nervous/annoyed. But there's been raging debates on whether Jung himself was INFJ or INTP (as the two main types), due to his acceptance of some level of mysticism.

    I think people that might be an IF or IT type who focus more on N can sport the types of usernames and iconography that you do, it tends to be more common with the NFs but but isn't exclusionarily their province.

    That's my long way of saying I think a type read is more firmly based on how someone thinks, behaves, processes info, and even determines what info is included in the decision process. So yeah.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #85
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    It's the process that matters, not the manifestation of said process.
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  6. #86
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I think mysticism is more an N province than a T/F one, although it's "fuzzy" enough around the edges that it makes most T's nervous/annoyed. But there's been raging debates on whether Jung himself was INFJ or INTP (as the two main types), due to his acceptance of some level of mysticism.

    I think people that might be an IF or IT type who focus more on N can sport the types of usernames and iconography that you do, it tends to be more common with the NFs but but isn't exclusionarily their province.

    That's my long way of saying I think a type read is more firmly based on how someone thinks, behaves, processes info, and even determines what info is included in the decision process. So yeah.
    Very interesting. That could make an interesting thread itself - to explore the thought processes that gravitate towards mysticism. For myself I have the strong "F" attribute of valuing and experiencing empathy, but I completely reject mysticism at some personal and social cost. If I can think of a way to frame a thread I will, but if someone else is inspired I hope they create it.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    The reason it seems to be NT types the most often has nothing to do with them thinking they're smarter or anything like that. It's because of their drive for truth and knowledge. It's right there in the description and it's seriously true about them.

    When a person says they're one type, but then they go on to do and say a TON of things that don't match up, it has these effects:

    It bugs the shit out of us because it doesn't make sense. It's not a personal thing at all, it (the situation) just doesn't make sense. We want and hunger for truth no matter what it is.

    It bothers us when falsities are perpetuated and grow thus kicking truth in the mouth even more. When a person who doesn't seem AT ALL like the type they claim, then go on to give advice constantly, then that's seen as false data being spouted off as true and it's not without a victim. That person is giving wrong information to someone who will believe it and then possibly repeat it and the amount of wrong that can grow and grow and grow makes us want to pull our f*cking hair out.

    It's horrendously worse if someone claims to be a type like ours and then does and says things that fly in the face of it thus basically spreading their wrong, but now it's about US in a way. And, while you can insult us all day long on our faults and get nowhere (we embrace truth and pretty much know our faults, so we shrug off someone pointing out the obvious), someone spreading untruths thus feeding stupidity/ignorance will bother us a lot more.

    As a NT, it's not personal at all. It's just noticing something we can't help but notice, and sometimes, it can get to us a bit.
    Yep.

    @greenfairy, you might want to try the Not Sure Of Your Type TypeC Video Challenge. Your posts (those I have seen since you joined the forum anyway) do come across as more F than T (specifically, more Fi), but sometimes appearances can deceive. I know of at least one selftyped INTP who became unsure of his type, his interests would have indicated ISTP but on seeing his video it was clear as day the good man is ENFP. He seems very happy about this (self) discovery and has since been typing himself as ENFP You never know wht will happen an it should at least be interesting to see other people's reaction to not only the answers to the video challenge's questions but also to your mannerisms and facial expressions.
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  8. #88
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    A thread with video where people actually take the MBTI test, with their reasons given on each answer, would be great.
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  9. #89
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    A thread with video where people actually take the MBTI test, with their reasons given on each answer, would be great.
    Yay! Meta!
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #90
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    this is one major reason:

    The persona represents your public image. The word is, obviously, related to the word person and personality, and comes from a Latin word for mask. So the persona is the mask you put on before you show yourself to the outside world. Although it begins as an archetype, by the time we are finished realizing it, it is the part of us most distant from the collective unconscious.

    At its best, it is just the "good impression" we all wish to present as we fill the roles society requires of us. But, of course, it can also be the "false impression" we use to manipulate people's opinions and behaviors. And, at its worst, it can be mistaken, even by ourselves, for our true nature: Sometimes we believe we really are what we pretend to be!
    if you are an F and your environment requires you to behave like T, you start to act more like T(persona is how you act out, in contrast to anima is how you act towards your personal unconscious), in other words, you need to pretend to be someone who you are not, T for example. this can lead to belief that you are who you pretend to be. but in reality, persona has nothing to do with type, except that it can lead you to false conclusions about your type. this is also where more behavioristic models, like socionics and MBTI profiles(compared to jungs model, which is more about cognition, rather than stereotypes you play out) fail and often confuse people about their true type, since the whole idea of type is to large degree about persona also, which in jungian model is not about type at all.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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