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  1. #111
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yes. We should have recruited the ENTPs to do the explaining long, long ago.

    @greenfairy

    It really isn't personal. I think most of the INTPs don't really care about what you type yourself as. I at least am more frustrated that you don't seem to see how what you say is incongruent with the MBTI description of an INTP.
    Alright. I'm sorry this is annoying. I'm seeing what people are trying to say more, but the problem is people haven't really explained much until now, and my problem obviously lies in not understanding what I've read. I can read "values" and "subjective experience" but if those words don't properly translate in my mind to what I think my behavior and my reasoning is, I'll have to think of it in a different way. Values can mean a lot of things to different people, and if I prefer one sense of the word over another, which doesn't really appear to make up my motivation and thought process, then I can reasonably conclude it doesn't primarily apply. Right? I'm seeing what people mean by likes and dislikes, but other details and semantics have to be discussed, or I'll just have to think about word meanings some more.

    Edit: by prefer one sense of the word, I mean I reject certain associated concepts.

  2. #112
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    A process which forms a model of the ideal by exploring concepts in the inner world. The concepts of "good", "bad" & all that is inbetween are defined & refined, so that a gauge is created to hold reality up against. If Ti defines "what is", then Fi defines its value, mainly in terms of the human condition (yes, it is true, but is it VALUABLE?). Based on what? Well what does Ti base its judgments on? It's not really day to day experience, is it? No, the basis is the inner world & whatever exploration goes on there. I suppose you could call that experience if you want to (the experiences in the inner world), but I'd still associate "experience" more with perceiving, or perhaps extroversion.

    So Fi is subjective, but so is Ti, as subjective in MBTI/Jungian terms just means the inner world is the focus, or that the process is introverted. We all know extroverts' thinking is subjective as well, if using subjective in the typical sense.

    Of course, what is used to define/refine that inner Fi model can be info from Pe, so in the case of an INFP, that's intangible patterns, relationships & emerging possibilites. Not that I feel the inner world needs to be justified.

    So Fi is NOT "x happened to me, x made me feel bad emotionally, therefore x is bad". It's NOT "I just feel this is right! It's a sense I have about the universe". (BARF)

    Personally, I don't experience Ne as mystical; I experience it as realizations & ideas popping up or striking me. I experience Fi as exploratory and rational, not mystical either. Fantasy, emotion, experience - informative to Fi (& ANY function), but not Fi itself. Fi examines that & decides if any of it is significant or can help clarify what "good" & "bad" are.

    "Mystical" is most associated with Ni, but some Ne-dom probably feel that way too.

    Anyone who experiences valuation as "mystical" or mainly emotional is likely not an F-dom. This is a sign that feeling is less differentiated from non-cognitive aspects in the mind than it would be with someone who is F-dom. This implies their feeling is fuzzy, not clear.

    I'm probably going on weird tangents, but I've talked about Fi so much I have to find some new angle to keep it interesting....
    Awesome post. This has helped me understand Fi a lot better. Thanks! The descriptions I read are really vague and confusing, so of course it's hard to see how they could apply to me. (I mean, what are "feeling tones? I don't think in poetry.)

    I can see how I value things a lot. But that's a lot different from making value judgments, which I try to avoid. This kind of thinking, of making value judgments and establishing what is "good" and "bad" seems too much like fundamentalist Christianity; sin and redemption, good people versus evil, dualism, black and white, guilt, and the resulting destruction that happens when religious people get into other people's business. I have perceived this behavior and identified the thinking and feeling patterns I think are responsible, and attempted to eradicate them in myself.

    So the words "good" and "bad" have taken on loaded connotations for me, and I tend to reject them, influencing my tests toward the thinking side. Is this T behavior, or simply Fi valuing the rejection of value judgment? I don't know. Kind of paradoxical. I don't think human valuation has anything to do with "what is," and I prefer to focus on objective reality. But I have to operate in my subjective world, because I am limited by a physical body. And it adds some fun to life.

    I do evaluate whether I like and dislike things, but so does everyone. I don't really understand yet the difference between Fi likes and dislikes and everyone else's. I've found that my preferences are useful in navigating my life successfully. Most of the time it's just to decide what will make me happy, but often they unconsciously affect me intuitively. I let my intuition tell me what I should be around or avoid. I started a thread about this, to see whether the intuition I am describing is Ni or Fi, and most people said Ni. If it's actually Fi, I guess I use it a lot.

    So this is my subjective experience plus my thoughts on how it relates to typology.

  3. #113
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    How can we have an inner world with out experience? and aren't right and wrong, good and bad, just different descriptions of the idea of value?

    I wasn't trying to suggest that there is no reasoning beyond emotion in Fi though only that they give more weight/value to their subjective experiences. Where a lead Ti might try to strip away as much of their self as possible to get to the facts, a lead Fi wants to determine value and in doing so must relate what they are evaluating to their preexisting opinions of what is valuable. Basically I was under the impression that Ti leads value subjectivity less and Fi leads value it more.

    "what is" being objective. value being subjective. Neither necessarily better.
    I was under the impression that experience, whether subjective or not, is the property of Si. Fi simply attaches a kind of rationality to it based on value, and Ti based on logical systems.

  4. #114
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That makes sense.

    In regards to me, the advice I was giving based on my personality could actually be backed up by typology if anyone was interested, and often I listed typological reasons for my characteristics. If someone thinks this is incorrect, they are more than welcome to argue with me about it. And the advice I give which is not typology related doesn't really have to do with it.

    So that's my point of view, not getting angry, just saying. I appreciate the response.
    You're welcome. I just wanted to clarify where NTs are most often coming from when it happens. And, when I said "advice", what I meant was like when someone starts a thread asking about their particular romance/family/etc. problems and dealing with a certain type. Things can get very confusing when someone, or more than one, who isn't really that type gives a buttload of advice.
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  5. #115
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I think that people often have a problem with mistyping when it seems like it's done to acquire the benefits of the label. In this circumstance, the mistyped person doesn't necessarily have a sense of the particular kind of alienation that can come with a certain cognitive style.

  6. #116
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    A thread with video where people actually take the MBTI test, with their reasons given on each answer, would be great.
    Yeah, I should do that!

  7. #117
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah, I should do that!
    *NOD* I'd totally watch it and seriously try to help as I'm sure many others would as well.
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  8. #118
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    this is one major reason:



    if you are an F and your environment requires you to behave like T, you start to act more like T(persona is how you act out, in contrast to anima is how you act towards your personal unconscious), in other words, you need to pretend to be someone who you are not, T for example. this can lead to belief that you are who you pretend to be. but in reality, persona has nothing to do with type, except that it can lead you to false conclusions about your type. this is also where more behavioristic models, like socionics and MBTI profiles(compared to jungs model, which is more about cognition, rather than stereotypes you play out) fail and often confuse people about their true type, since the whole idea of type is to large degree about persona also, which in jungian model is not about type at all.
    Interesting.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I was under the impression that experience, whether subjective or not, is the property of Si. Fi simply attaches a kind of rationality to it based on value, and Ti based on logical systems.
    I was under the impression that our experience of the world is taken in via s/n and t/f is how we make judgements about those experiences meaning.

  10. #120
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    *NOD* I'd totally watch it and seriously try to help as I'm sure many others would as well.
    +1. I might even do one, with audio only. Although...laziness...
    -end of thread-

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