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  1. #231
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Come you here to me!

    Let's run up on Fidelia and group hug her, too. Man, those relatives sound beastly! Brace yourself, Fidelia, group hug coming your way!

  2. #232
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Come you here to me!
    yay! the way to a fi users heart...is just to get it..that's awesome you do!
    hugsback baaaabaay!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #233
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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  4. #234
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Based on the single principle of what works for us, I've noticed a few manifestations of Fe:

    Open Negotiation
    This sounds like Te, and in a way it is like Te. Whether you have had experience with the people-pleaser Fe-user or the annoying self-righteous Fe-user, you'll be surprised how much they are willing to openly 'negotiate' things with you (even almost objectively). "Can you please not do this because it makes me feel uncomfortable" is a very reasonable request and most Fe-users will not take offense. However, here is the tricky part: because Fe-users are so attuned to other people's emotional states, most of the time your delivery of the request will matter a lot, which leads us to the second feature of Fe:
    I've seen this negotiation most blatantly with Fe-doms, although all Fe-users do this. It can be about making some kind of Feeling evaluation about whatever a situation is too. Fe-users can debate like Te-users do, as in someone makes a statement that seems to be a blanket assessment that's not open to negotiation--but the person is actually fine with people disagreeing. The difference is that when another Fe-user offers a rebuttal, they normally give their response housed within cues that what they are saying is not meant as a personal attack. Te-users don't bother because it's already in the realm of not being personal. But with Fe, it is, so the cues must be given or else it will feel like a personal attack (this is also why Fe-users feel like Te statements are harsh-sounding).


    Cues
    Fe-users live in a world of cues. It's unconscious. We are not trying to make your life difficult. It is just so natural that sometimes we are not even aware of the fact that we pick up and interpret so many emotional cues from other people all the time. So what are these cues? They can be anything: facial expression, tone of voice, action, choice of word -- basically everything you do. Fe-users feel themselves part of a whole, so they try to constantly gauge the team's emotional state to see if they need to make adjustments or to do anything to keep the team happy. This means they are on a constant lookout for 'cues' or 'clues' from other people and try to guess the meaning behind these clues. Because they are so sensitive to picking up cues, they assume that other people will be as sensitive, so sometimes instead of making direct requests, they drop subtle clues about what is making them unhappy and would like you to change. This is to let you know without making you feel accused of being insensitive. However, if you do not pick up the clues and try to do something about it, Fe will start to get hurt and upset and will start to act like wounded Fe and make your life difficult.



    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Over time, I've realized that Fi users care passionately and deeply about a select few people in their lives and would do just about anything for them. Fe users care more generally and diffusely about a wider scope of people. That is not to say that I don't have levels of care, depending on how close someone is to me, but it's not a tap that is just turned on or off. As a Fe user, Fi's care can sometimes seem over the top or else non-existent. I'm sure that to a Fi user, Fe care seems kind of superficial and sometimes nosy.

    To a Fe user, actions are really the evidence of care. Therefore a Fi user deciding they don't feel like attending a family function, even if it matters a lot to you, or them not acknowledging a person's efforts even if they feel a little invasive (or at least suggesting an alternative action that would be better) often is interpreted as a lack of care for the person or else immaturity/selfishness. Stony silence or grumpiness in the morning simply because the Fi user had to get up seems rather selfish (because those cues and attitudes convey to the group or to the Fe user that they are somehow responsible and should be doing something). Not responding when someone talks to you or acknowledging their presence in some way is taken as something deliberate, when it fact I've discovered that it is not intended in that way at all. To Fe, this is confusing, because if you follow Fe rules, you generally always know when someone is upset and then take measures to negotiate fixing it. With Fi, there appears to be no way to know and a Fe user has a much harder time just shrugging their shoulders to what feels like a personal accusation (or failing that extreme selfishness! - are you noticing a pattern here?)

    Again, very little is neutral to Fe. Every action, comment, look, bit of body language is usually a cue that all is well (appreciation is being shown in some way) or that all is not well (and people pick up on it and try to adjust things so more people can feel happy with the situation). When the Fe user feels they are making these adjustments for the Fi user, but it is not being reciprocated, they can also become resentful (while the Fi user wonders what on earth is wrong, or else leaves the person alone to work it out - which is further interpreted as not caring!)

    It wouldn't occur to most Fe users that a card detailing their appreciation for the Fi user and what qualities they appreciate about Fi user would be seen as an awkward present (because for the Fe user that would be about the best thing they could get!). This can even discourage the Fe user, because they are really not sure how to show appreciation (something they really need themselves) in any of the conventional ways they are used to doing. (I've found Fi people often seem put on the spot by compliments or public recognition too).
    I can relate to almost everything here. But with the first bolded part, I feel this a little differently. I think @PeaceBaby is right that instinctual stackings are involved here. For me, it's like I feel connected to the general whole of people, but to people that I know personally, I feel very intensely towards them, either positively or negatively. I relate to the descriptions that Fi-users often give (like @Lady X just did) about feeling the need to hold back or people would get weirded out by my intensity.

    To the second bolded--yessss. I think a lot of times Fe-users are looking for feedback, but they don't specify that they are because they assume it's obvious. But it seems like Fi-users a lot of times more view it as "this is just someone expressing themselves." I won't lie--this has been a huge thorn in my side with all the Fi-users that I've lived with. Because a lot of times, I need to hear feedback in order to figure out what I think, not because I just go along with what others tell me is their opinion, but because many times I realize from my reactions to others' opinions what I think. What I've learned to do is specify that I'm looking for feedback, and this saves some miscommunications.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  5. #235
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Me, too, and I AM one.
    What my Fi friends have taught me is that sometimes it's ok to flake, a person who's grouchy at the breakfast table needs coffee and for you to leave him alone, a person who doesn't answer you usually wants you to shut up or is just not thinking about you right at that moment ... all of which makes life surprisingly easier for me. Fi is more relaxed in many ways. Fi assumes you're gonna do whatever the heck you feel like doing at any given moment and has no expectations of you -- PRIDES itself on having no expectations of you. While this feels barbaric to the Fe user, I must say, once I realized it was genuine, I found myself savoring its charms.

    Afterthought: So much of what I see in this thread can be totally fixed just by speaking up about how you feel ... nobody does this but me? I don't have the patience to just sit and take it. Eventually I'm gonna be asking if I can help and if not, moving on to something more engaging. Or making an observation in a joking way to the effect that there's not a lot of feedback going on here, did you turn into a zombie? You kind of have to train people how to respond to you (and they have to train you back). Once you establish dialogue and learn each other's signals, it's easier, but you can't do that unless you establish dialogue, which sometimes you have to prompt for...
    I speak up about how I feel. (at least, once I KNOW what I feel. )

    Also, related to your post, I think my recognition that everyone's different now overrides any expectation I might have once had re. their behaviors, or how I might have read into them previously, or whatever. I kind of shrug off more momentary outbursts in a meeting at work, for example, and I think I've always been ok if someone happens to be grumpy... because sometimes *I'm* grumpy!! And, when I'm grumpy, I want to be able to be 'accepted' for being grumpy in that moment. (however I won't be 'offended', either, if someone tries to cheer me up, because that's who they are and they have the 'right' also to try to do that; I just may not be able to cheer up, but would probably appreciate the intent behind it)

    Similarly, I don't relate 100% to all of the team-speak / unification. I think it's very important to make sure communication is clear and everyone understands what's going on, but I think it's unfair to think or expect that everyone is individually going to actually agree with it. And, I respect the disagreement. However, once a decision has been made, if the other person doesn't want to join in, they're free not to - and that's perfectly fine. But if they choose to join in, then I wouldn't think it would be cool for them to continually harp on the rest of the group - as it's not going to accomplish anything once decision is made. (sorry, tangent)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #236
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I read somewhere in the enneagram threads someone saying that being an so dom made them think they were a Fe user at first when they aren't. I don't really have a large enough control group to tell though.
    Well, I realize now asking you this as a question was off the mark anyway.

    As an Fe-aux so-dom, your Fe would be supported and accentuated by your stacking - in fact, I would hazard to say that you would identify your stacking WITH Fe even more so, kind of jumbling them both together. This combination would likely make you feel even more "Fe-ish" to others, while the 1 would come across as very high standards and kind of "judgier".

    As for Fi-dom and so-dom, I'm the person who has to reconcile a dichotomy here, not you.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #237
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As an Fe-aux so-dom, your Fe would be supported and accentuated by your stacking - in fact, I would hazard to say that you would identify your stacking WITH Fe even more so, kind of jumbling them both together. This combination would likely make you feel even more "Fe-ish" to others, while the 1 would come across as very high standards and kind of "judgier".

    As for Fi-dom and so-dom, I'm the person who has to reconcile a dichotomy here, not you.
    Yeah, I would agree with all that.

    Stackings can either support or undermine applied function use.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #238
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah - I thought you meant generally in reference to the conversation. For sure I'm about as Fe-ey as you can get - ENFJ mother on top of it all!

    I think the 2 wing softens the 1 up a bit, but it also makes me susceptible to wanting people to recognize my efforts to accommodate them, in addition to already having the 1 standards thing.

    I think that I've gotten to a point where I can at least acknowledge that anything deviating from Fe guidelines isn't solely immature or selfish, but I still need more input to be able to actually put myself in someone else's shoes and understand it. With casual situations or even work, I'm pretty able to ask clarifying questions or just shrug my shoulders. It's more when I have invested something (significant work, people close to me, good friends etc) that I find it harder to just let go and say, "To each his own" because it feels personal and devaluing, which makes me question our relationship. I've improved quite a bit at making my own needs known verbally and speaking up when something is bothering me. Even though it feels unnatural to do so, I at least understand that often people actually don't see the cues that seem as obvious as talking does to me (and less demanding/embarrassing/judgy/invasive) and so it makes me not mind saying something because it is helpful to them.

  9. #239
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm curious -- Fi users, do you see some of what Fidelia's describing here as "rude," or not. How do you interpret it?

  10. #240
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    [QUOTE - subtlefighter]To the second bolded--yessss. I think a lot of times Fe-users are looking for feedback, but they don't specify that they are because they assume it's obvious. But it seems like Fi-users a lot of times more view it as "this is just someone expressing themselves." I won't lie--this has been a huge thorn in my side with all the Fi-users that I've lived with. Because a lot of times, I need to hear feedback in order to figure out what I think, not because I just go along with what others tell me is their opinion, but because many times I realize from my reactions to others' opinions what I think. What I've learned to do is specify that I'm looking for feedback, and this saves some miscommunications.[/QUOTE]

    Very true! I always assumed it was obvious that allowing me to vent and asking questions without making a plan FOR me was helpful. It was a revelation to me to discover that sometimes it felt to others like I was just trying to convince them that the world was a dismal place or that I was spinning my wheels. When I discovered this, I started to verbalize what I needed the other person to do for me (ask questions, listen, don't make any pronouncements or give advice) and they would be performing the greatest service for me in the world that I could ask for. I also realized that I actually needed to thank them for doing this. I don't find that kind of thing draining. In fact it is interesting to me (in a fairly detached kind of way) to figure out the pieces of the puzzle. However, others don't always find it easy to do and it never occurred to me that I was perhaps burdening them or that they were expending effort just by listening.

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