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  1. #201
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    i love this thread! @Lady X you are a genius! i'm starting to recognize that Fe is not all that bad, kinda feels like a grown up Fi (kinda, not quite, sometimes it also feels to be as extremely biased and unjust).

  2. #202
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I should add that a lot of what I might be sympathetic towards Fi (on moral issues) is borrowed from my religious beliefs. I can't say it's "an internal value system". I have a value system on loan...one that I don't totally believe in. And I can discuss it clearly rather than be ambiguous or mysterious or highly personal like Fi. I wish I could believe more strongly, but my mind has a way of tearing things apart. Then I'm back to almost square one. I hold to the important bits though. Some things are worth believing, some things inspire empathy.
    This is something i have a hard time understanding. That not everyone has a sense of good and bad and fair and unfair. Is this what you're saying?

  3. #203
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I am like that too... it's the effing aura, I tell ya, it's the effing aura. I can tell when something is off or forced but I try not assume I know what it is because that's when shit starts to happen to me.
    I would also describe it as an aura. Although Fe to me, is more like a tool in my arsenal than something that just comes natural. I would assume that it's just natural to you.

  4. #204
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    For me, I think my Fe is really simple. It's all about "the team". Of course, it depends on the individual and the situation what the team includes. Sometimes it's just two people. Sometimes it's the whole human race. The basic principle is always the same: what works for us is what is right.

    I'm in a relationship with an Fi-dom and I've started to be able to sense what Fe is from how I'm different from him. Sometimes it is fascinating to see how what I thought 'everybody knew' was a completely foreign concept for my INFP. The same thing goes vice-versa, of course.

    Based on the single principle of what works for us, I've noticed a few manifestations of Fe:

    Open Negotiation
    This sounds like Te, and in a way it is like Te. Whether you have had experience with the people-pleaser Fe-user or the annoying self-righteous Fe-user, you'll be surprised how much they are willing to openly 'negotiate' things with you (even almost objectively). "Can you please not do this because it makes me feel uncomfortable" is a very reasonable request and most Fe-users will not take offense. However, here is the tricky part: because Fe-users are so attuned to other people's emotional states, most of the time your delivery of the request will matter a lot, which leads us to the second feature of Fe:

    Cues
    Fe-users live in a world of cues. It's unconscious. We are not trying to make your life difficult. It is just so natural that sometimes we are not even aware of the fact that we pick up and interpret so many emotional cues from other people all the time. So what are these cues? They can be anything: facial expression, tone of voice, action, choice of word -- basically everything you do. Fe-users feel themselves part of a whole, so they try to constantly gauge the team's emotional state to see if they need to make adjustments or to do anything to keep the team happy. This means they are on a constant lookout for 'cues' or 'clues' from other people and try to guess the meaning behind these clues. Because they are so sensitive to picking up cues, they assume that other people will be as sensitive, so sometimes instead of making direct requests, they drop subtle clues about what is making them unhappy and would like you to change. This is to let you know without making you feel accused of being insensitive. However, if you do not pick up the clues and try to do something about it, Fe will start to get hurt and upset and will start to act like wounded Fe and make your life difficult.

    The So-Called Fe Rules
    People talk all the time about Fi values, which are sometimes invisible. Fe values are just the same, except that they are out in the open. Since they are out in the open, and since Fe-users are mostly concerned about the team's well-being, these 'values' become 'everyone's values' and can feel like rigid 'rules' to non-Fe-users. Fe users tend to have 'shared values'. Most of the time they are the exact same values that Fi-users have. While Fi goes by "my personal values are part of me", Fe says "I am part of a whole, so these universal values are part of me".

    So I guess that's it for the technical bit. The question is, what does Fe feel like for me?

    For me, I usually feel an emotional connection with everything else. Sometimes when my Fe is in bliss, I feel a glowing warmth in me and I can almost feel the Earth's collective memory -- sad and happy and at peace, wise and watching. I feel a part of the world, and I feel I really belong here, because what I feel in my heart is the same thing that is felt everywhere, in every human and mammal and tree and blade of grass. I feel an acute awareness of everything else, of their presence, somewhere out there, and I can reach out and touch them. I rejoice in my place in the universe. Whatever emotions I feel, I am part of a greater existence, like a thread in a great piece of tapestry, and there are similar threads out there that resonate with the same emotions, and I can feel them all and love them all.

    Wait... I think that's not really Fe... but oh well
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  5. #205
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Over time, I've realized that Fi users care passionately and deeply about a select few people in their lives and would do just about anything for them. Fe users care more generally and diffusely about a wider scope of people. That is not to say that I don't have levels of care, depending on how close someone is to me, but it's not a tap that is just turned on or off. As a Fe user, Fi's care can sometimes seem over the top or else non-existent. I'm sure that to a Fi user, Fe care seems kind of superficial and sometimes nosy.

    To a Fe user, actions are really the evidence of care. Therefore a Fi user deciding they don't feel like attending a family function, even if it matters a lot to you, or them not acknowledging a person's efforts even if they feel a little invasive (or at least suggesting an alternative action that would be better) often is interpreted as a lack of care for the person or else immaturity/selfishness. Stony silence or grumpiness in the morning simply because the Fi user had to get up seems rather selfish (because those cues and attitudes convey to the group or to the Fe user that they are somehow responsible and should be doing something). Not responding when someone talks to you or acknowledging their presence in some way is taken as something deliberate, when it fact I've discovered that it is not intended in that way at all. To Fe, this is confusing, because if you follow Fe rules, you generally always know when someone is upset and then take measures to negotiate fixing it. With Fi, there appears to be no way to know and a Fe user has a much harder time just shrugging their shoulders to what feels like a personal accusation (or failing that extreme selfishness! - are you noticing a pattern here?)

    Again, very little is neutral to Fe. Every action, comment, look, bit of body language is usually a cue that all is well (appreciation is being shown in some way) or that all is not well (and people pick up on it and try to adjust things so more people can feel happy with the situation). When the Fe user feels they are making these adjustments for the Fi user, but it is not being reciprocated, they can also become resentful (while the Fi user wonders what on earth is wrong, or else leaves the person alone to work it out - which is further interpreted as not caring!)

    It wouldn't occur to most Fe users that a card detailing their appreciation for the Fi user and what qualities they appreciate about Fi user would be seen as an awkward present (because for the Fe user that would be about the best thing they could get!). This can even discourage the Fe user, because they are really not sure how to show appreciation (something they really need themselves) in any of the conventional ways they are used to doing. (I've found Fi people often seem put on the spot by compliments or public recognition too).

  6. #206
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're talking from personal experience. Someone in your family? Or a roommate?

    And it's Funny to me that our expression of feelings makes you feel obligated in some way.

    Like grumpy morning person is doing something to you by being grumpy.

    I mean I get it and am pretty sure I have felt the same at some point. Maybe being hyper aware of a house guests comfort or something but it's not typical.

    And you're saying it feels like we an just turn on or off our concern for others?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #207
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're talking from personal experience. Someone in your family? Or a roommate?
    Conglomoration - INFP boyfriend, ESTJ boyfriend, ENFP good friend, ISTJ father, Fi using relatives.

    And it's Funny to merge our expression if feelings makes you feel obligated in some way.
    What do you mean by merge our expression? You mean put together individual experiences from different places, or merge the person's expression with my response to it?

    Like grumpy morning person is doing something to you by being grumpy.
    Oh it totally feels like they are. For example, the other day may almost 19 yr old niece and I stayed at my sister's (who recently has come back into contact after years of little or none - bad marriage etc).

    I noticed my niece had just woken up so I let her know how much time it would be before we needed to leave (no response or acknowledgement). My sister complimented her on her shirt as she walked past (no response). No thank you to my sister for having us when we left. We got into the car and started driving to meet my parents. Being in a new town that she was trying to orient herself to, I explained what streets we were taking as we drove (no response). "Here's where I used to live in college" (no response). However, when I made some comment about something relating directly to her, she talked. Explanation of what we'd be doing next and what my folks had said when I called them (no response). Finally in frustration, I said, "Is something wrong?" She looked surprised and said, "Of course not - why would you think that?"

    For me, if I acted that way (which would be difficult to do), it would mean either that I had just suffered some horrible kind of trauma that rendered me unable to respond normally to other people, or else that I was burning with the anger of a thousand suns and either was going to unleash a volley if I started talking or was so upset I was going to be overly emotional or I thought it was up to the other person to open the conversation because it was pretty obvious what was wrong.

    Therefore, her behaviour, even if not intended would most readily be interpreted by me as 1) I'm really mad at you for some unexpressed reason 2) I only care about what interests me and right now you are too boring to acknowledge unless you talk about something that interests me at that moment 3) Something is really wrong and I need you to notice 4) My comfort takes precedence over the comfort of everyone around me.

    I'm not a huge talker, so it's not like I'm bothering her with drivel all the time. I also am reasonably sensitive to non-verbal cues about whether the other person wants to talk or not. I just need some context and if it's only a matter of not feeling like expending the effort to acknowledge someone who has treated her well (my sister for example), that is something I just don't see as legitimate. Because she lives with us and in many ways we have more of a mother/daughter older sister/little sister kind of relationship, I feel responsible for what happens at someone else's house.

    I had also just finished spending the whole weekend with her doing fun stuff, spent money and went out of my way to accommodate her, so to a Fe user the way to reciprocate is to take the other person's values/needs into consideration (particularly when in this case, it costs nothing!)


    I mean I get it and am pretty sure I have felt the same at some point. Maybe being hyper aware of a house guests comfort or something but it's not typical.

    And you're saying it feels like we an just turn on or off our concern for others?
    No, it's not the your concern with the same person gets turned on or off, but rather the tap is on full blast for a select few, and completely off for many more. Fe feels more comfortable with halfway on for a wider range of people, with the flow of concern adjusted to the situation.

    (And I want to assure you, that I'm not trying to be offensive, although I'm sure this is worded terribly. It's more trying to convey some of what I've discovered here and in real life through interacting with various flavours of Fi users and getting more information/your reaction to refine it.)

  8. #208
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i'm sorry that was auto correct on my phone. i didn't mean to type merge.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #209
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow, you're doing this by phone? I suck at typing anything longer than a sentence or so on there!

  10. #210
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    oh yeah i don't know what was up with your niece. that's weird. completely lacking in social grace.

    my infp boyfriend can be totally grumpy in the morning. it makes me mad actually...not because he's doing anything to me but just because it's annoying..i mean...gimme a break.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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