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  1. #191
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I like your last statement, Orangey. That about sums it up for me. I think the context is what allows the discomfort to not be felt in the same way. Perhaps also, it is that when in that situation, Fe users actually feel better when there is something tangible that can be done - makes the net result of the outcome trump the feelings of discomfort at the moment.

  2. #192
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To me, Fi comforting feels intrusive because they actually want to experience what I'm going through along with me.

    It was a surprise to me when I realized that some Fi users feel quite the opposite way and feel either intruded upon or put on the spot. It felt rejecting to me when a close friend who was a Fi user did not pick up on hints that I wanted to talk, or even outright changed the subject, particularly since I do not get all emotional and vulnerable very often. If I do around people that are not in my very inner circle, it is because things are indeed desperate. It felt a bit like it was all about the other person and how they were feeling seeing me in discomfort, instead of them thinking about what I needed right then.
    I cannot relate to the italicized portion at all. I can relate to the beginning of the latter part though, about feeling intruded upon. I typically will not change the subject, but I may make fun of the situation or the person (ie. when my mother gets teary singing a favorite hymn or after watching a movie or reading something sad). I also find myself trying to change the course of conversation between people if there are tense emotions involved.
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  3. #193
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelchairdoug View Post
    I cannot relate to the italicized portion at all. I can relate to the beginning of the latter part though, about feeling intruded upon. I typically will not change the subject, but I may make fun of the situation or the person (ie. when my mother gets teary singing a favorite hymn or after watching a movie or reading something sad). I also find myself trying to change the course of conversation between people if there are tense emotions involved.
    I realize that it is difficult to really put Fi in a box because it is rather individual. Probably my impressions have been somewhat coloured by NFP descriptions of it from that perspective.

    Yee, with the last reaction - no quicker way to make me lastingly resentful than someone poking at some kind of strong emotion in me, even if it's in discomfort - I don't like showing emotion in front of people generally (particularly those who don't take it in context or feel uncomfortable), so being mocked for something I can't control seems especially mean-spirited (although it may not be meant that way and is probably only gently poking fun to alleviate tension).

  4. #194
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Well orangey that can be true in certain situations but not always so context does matter ... It does but like I said somewhere earlier it just gets weighed... Like right now which is most important. Often being caring trumps whatever else. Or being sensitive to someone... Like I'm not okay with people being crass in front of my mother or some other sweet older lady.

    So just like you all have human values that you would stand up for we also have fe ish type values too.

    Maybe that makes it worse knowing that whenever you've felt slighted that person may have weighed the situation first and still chose to take that stance. I don't know. It's hard to say without knowing the situations.

    I like to think I can tell when someone wants to talk.. I don't typically ask questions until they start to open up on their own though. And I wouldn't change the conversation.

    But I think in the last thread that was similar I realized that fe is like te but with feeling... I mean I can get it when I think about it that way. That I think outloud and clarify my thoughts in the process so I get that you need a sounding board in a similar way.

    And maybe you all can get how clear you feel about your ti thought structure... And realize that's how we are with fi. Like us this specific thing an we need you to line up with it. Get in sync and understand it from the inside of it.

    Does that make sense?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  5. #195
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    I only know the power of Xyy, but I suppose I can shine some light on the subject.

    It comes often in a certain stimulation to the face. People with Xyy (or what some might consider Fe) will often have a smile that is meant to communicate something. Whereas a Xai (some may consider Fi) will have a smile that seems to be open to communication.

    This is, of course, a very basic level understanding of this phenomenon. And of course, only really comes when you aren't thinking so much about how you're subconsciously deciding to smile.

  6. #196
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think the reason (and someone touched on it before) why many Fe users don't feel all that awkward around someone who is visibly upset (well, within certain limits) is because they don't feel they are being asked to manufacture emotion that they don't feel. They can identify with the feeling of being upset, even if they can't identify with the actually cause of the upset the person is experiencing, so it doesn't feel unauthentic to try to comfort them a little by doing what they'd want done for them (listening, agreement, sympathy).

    To me, Fi comforting feels intrusive because they actually want to experience what I'm going through along with me. This just makes me feel like not only am I not doing so good, but now I have to pay attention to someone else's emotional state as well as mine before I can get on with how to react to the situation. It feels kind of like asking about some casual event and finding yourself signed up for it before you know it. Or maybe like the other person is assuming you are feeling something that you don't actually feel.

    For me, someone asking "unsolicited" questions about my emotional state seems considerate - like they are gathering enough information to know what kind of response would be most helpful to me at that moment. They are not assuming they know how I feel. They are expressing an interest in accurately understanding what is going on (and hence understanding my perhaps uncharacteristic response in context) and telling me that I won't be burdening or boring them by talking about it. It also feels like being thrown something to hang on to - talking about what is going on clarifies the situation for me and helps me to feel that it is more manageable so I can pull myself together.

    It was a surprise to me when I realized that some Fi users feel quite the opposite way and feel either intruded upon or put on the spot. It felt rejecting to me when a close friend who was a Fi user did not pick up on hints that I wanted to talk, or even outright changed the subject, particularly since I do not get all emotional and vulnerable very often. If I do around people that are not in my very inner circle, it is because things are indeed desperate. It felt a bit like it was all about the other person and how they were feeling seeing me in discomfort, instead of them thinking about what I needed right then.
    A big yesss to all this, especially the bolded. Since I've realized that Fi-users will actually create the pain of others inside themselves, there are times when I'm venting to an Fi-user and I see in their eyes that they are recreating my pain inside of them, and then it's like--now I feel bad that I'm making them feel pain. Which defeats the purpose of them trying to comfort me. Although I do appreciate that what they're doing shows concern for me. Which in turn comforts me that someone cares. So maybe it does help after all, lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is correct, I think.

    Being a TP, my Fe is rather underdeveloped, but I've been told that in situations that required emotional comforting that I've comported myself quite well and been helpful, even though I felt internally fairly uncomfortable and would rather not have been in the situation at all. My brother, an ExTJ, tells me that he feels equally uncomfortable in such situations, but the difference between us is that, for him, his discomfort takes priority over the other person's needs. He can't even help it...it's an inability to put the exigencies of the situation above the needs of the self. Even the ExFPs that I know tend to be that way, too.

    That's how I view the difference between Fi and Fe. Fi doesn't give a shit about context while Fe is all about context.
    As a general rule, Fi-users go inside themselves first to see what to do about a situation--whether their emotional state is at a point where they want to help, or whether their value system says that they should help. Fe-users instead will have a more instant "this person needs help, and I can help--therefore I will help" without really looking at their own emotional state. (Note: Of course Fi-users will many times have a value that says they should help others, and sometimes Fe-users will be in a really bad state and won't be able to help, so I'm only talking about the general first reactions people have.)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #197
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    This thing about asking questions, I don’t know, I think that this only tends to be a problem (for me/I only notice it) in the forum because written communication is much more deliberate and I’m a little impatient to get to the point (or what *I* consider ‘the point’). I’ve had FP friends, spent hours talking and it’s never really occurred to me, because just hanging out and talking is so much more stream-of-conscience. I can honestly say ‘”get to the point!” doesn’t occur to me very much in person with my NFP friends. I’ve definitely had this thought about some people- but I usually don’t end up hanging out with such people talking for hours on end, and if it were a problem irl then (logic states) I’d gravitate towards being friends primarily with Fe’ers…..and that’s not especially the case, so I don’t know. I do know that in the forum sometimes I run into the problem of getting responses from Fi’ers that seems equivalent to the frustration Orobas has described with Ti’ers- that it’s like they skirt around the point and I can’t tell what they’re on about. They seem to hyperfocus on details which I can’t figure out the relevancy of- and if it happens as a response to me venting or looking for specific feedback (and if the convo is shifted towards my feelings instead of the question I asked, it can be agitating for the reason fid described) .

    [eta:] It’s like dropping a car off at a mechanic’s to get the brakes looked at, being told you should call them around noon: then you call around noon and the guy says “You’re passenger door handle was sticking, so we took it apart to spray some WD-40 in it and we’re in the process of putting it back together.”
    Me: “Okay, does that have anything to do with why the brakes weren’t working?”
    Guy: “Oh no, it’s just that while the car was here we’d thought we’d fix it. And you’re left windshield wiper needs to be recalibrated because it’s going too far and scratching the paint.”
    Me: “And the brakes?”

    It’s kind of like the goal of the mechanic is to provide the best driving experience possible and ‘brakes’ is just a fragment of that; whereas my goal was to get my brakes working. It’s not that I’m not interested in ‘best driving experience possible’- but that’s something I figure out myself. I don’t feel the urgency in getting that done, I know how my mind works and I really don’t worry about an opportunity to scheme up “the best driving experience possible” passing me by (i.e. incorporating idealistic visions into how to treat people or handle problems) because it’s like that program is ALWAYS running in the background to me- I really don’t worry about whether or not I’ll get back to it, having loose ends in the internal world isn’t a source of contention to me but having loose ends in the external world most definitely is: I DO worry about that car being ready to drive when I need one. It’s kind of like Fi’ers like to bounce that stuff off each other and figure it out/speculate amongst themselves in the moment, whereas I just want the information I want and I figure out the ‘ideal’ on my own time. An FP might be delighted to hear about the door handle getting fixed, because they’ll be in that same “let’s talk about the perfect driving experience together!” boat and neither will feel the priority of actually making the car drivable first- and might even get offended or put off by the notion of only fixing the brakes- having loose ends in the external world isn’t as much a source of contention to them. Honestly, I understand how annoying a repetitive “But what about the brakes?” can be (and how dogmatic it can sound) because that’s what Te is to me, at times- an oafish killjoy.

    But it can be grating if I’m exacerbated by something and I’m trying to get feedback- so maybe I’ll ask “Is it out of line for someone to expect this of me?- and the person wants to point out “You sound like it made you angry, what kind of relationship would you like to have with this person?” [Brakes = brakes. Brakes =/= ‘anything having to do with cars’.] I’m asking because I feel an urgency to settle some conflict I’m having with someone and I’m only looking for some objective measure of how reasonable my anger is about that immediate problem. Sometimes what the other person is expecting isn’t out of line and I’ll actually be agitated because the event happened on the heels of something else and I accidentally attach the agitation to the wrong thing- this is the kind of clarity I’m looking for. I settle the rest in private, and having someone point out my feelings really just feels superfluous and invasive unless they’re close enough to me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #198
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: although preferring Fi or Fe might make you interpret differently and therefore respond to an event with different feelings. But the feelings wouldn't "feel" any different from the same feelings in an Fi user, I wouldn't think.
    you're talking about the distinction between feelings and emotions.
    Oh, its
    You
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  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    you're talking about the distinction between feelings and emotions.
    Hmm.. What kind of distinction?

  10. #200
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I think this sounds like something T types do. I'm not sure if its really different for TJ (Fi users) vs. TP (Fe users).



    This is exactly how my emotional system works too. I also have a tendency to use a good/bad divde with my emotions with avoiding the bad as much as possible. I understand that there can be some value or even some good in bad emotions but it's not the natural way I operate.
    Not picking on anyone, just figured out some of this myself recently and am tired of the societal message that vilifies certain emotions. There are no *bad* emotions. Emotions are there to convey important information: fear--that there is something dangerous out there that needs to be paid attention to so that one doesn't get injured or die; anger--that certain needs aren't being met or dealt with; sadness--that something or someone important to one's well being has been lost. I'm over-simplifying, and humans have changed their own environment so much that our emotions don't always match with the situation any more. But that doesn't make them *bad*. Uncomfortable, perhaps, but not *bad*. We don't need them to go away--we need to learn to listen to them, figure out what they mean in context, and then deal with them. IMO, YMMV.

    Sorry, slight derail. Back to regular programming.
    Johari / Nohari

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