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  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default Typing the US and England

    Mod note: Split from Victor's Two Perfect Addictions thread.

    Seeing as this is becoming a question of responsibilities I'll change my tac.

    America places the responsibility on the speaker more than the listener.
    England place the responsibility on the listener more than the speaker.

    E vs I.

    The reality is though that the responsibility is for both people to try to elevate the communication. Another matter of reality is that being nice can dilute the point and I've found INTJs the best for making a poignant point.

    What's people's beef anyway? Victor says that the MBTI is a load of whoey and you're kidding yourself if you believe in it. He's right to a certain point. If you, however, take that factual statement and decide to take it as a judgement on you as a person then is Victor being hurtful or are you just deciding to make it personal? To me it's not clear cut.

    Anyhow who wants a world filled with everyone acting courteously and nice all the time. Yes there are degrees but in essence it's essential to progress.

    If you like House then quit complaining when he comes to the forum for a stay

    Oh and that's not to say that I encourage "bad" behaviour, just that I discourage the whole 'supposed to' thinking.

    Besides isn't the MBTI about communication? If you're a true believer then you'll see the playfulness behind the stony demeanour.
    Last edited by ThatsWhatHeSaid; 05-22-2008 at 12:20 PM. Reason: split thread
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    America places the responsibility on the speaker more than the listener.
    England place the responsibility on the listener more than the speaker.

    E vs I.
    How do you figure that?

    just curious...

  3. #3
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    How do you figure that?

    just curious...
    What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

    The latter I consider obvious, the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

    To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

    (Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Why do you link MBTI and therapy?

    And why are both to be considered narcissistic?

    I've never considered that striving for self-actualistion may be considered narcissistic...

    Mind you if it is, then there is very little that isn't narcissistic...
    Everything is about you isn't it Dom?

    All of life is self referential. That makes Victor's statement both true and redundant. A murky but beautiful symmetry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Want a Tic-Tac?
    If I gave you edam you'd turn it into emmental wouldn't you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes. Explain.
    I have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (Although I'm guessing you're saying it is "E" for the speaker to tailor things to fit a bulk crowd, and "I" for the solitary listener to subjectively pull info inside and evaluate it there, in relation to themselves. E's might try to take more responsibility for the listeners' reactions, I's are less inclined. I think that's quite a bit simplistic, although interesting.)
    Odd how you go straight for the responsibilities of when speaking...

    Closet extrovert

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    It's a big step from there to "things about which people write books" being evidence for the invalidity of the subject matter.
    Ah this reminds me of a phrase relayed to me "the rest is intuitively obvious". It's a false statement as nothing intuitive is truly obvious (depending on how you define obvious).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If I gave you edam you'd turn it into emmental wouldn't you.
    "Silent E" was my hero growing up -- he turned cubs into cubes and tubs into tubes and finals into finales.

    But usually I'm a bit even more twisty.

    Odd how you go straight for the responsibilities of when speaking...
    Closet extrovert
    Oh, I should infract you SO bad for that.

    Actually, I think it's cuz of my crappy past where I was dependent on adults who would flip out if I said the wrong thing. (Not safe, nope.) I couldn't afford to leave the responsibility of interpretation up to the listener.

    Been easing up on that, though. So if you don't understand what I'm saying right now, it's your own damned fault.

    Ah this reminds me of a phrase relayed to me "the rest is intuitively obvious". It's a false statement as nothing intuitive is truly obvious (depending on how you define obvious).
    That was so obviously intuitive.
    (still want that tic-tac?)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

    The latter I consider obvious,
    I haven't found that to be true. There are some very introverted places in America you know. Even big ones. I found DC to seem kind of introverted. I found the whole place rather ISTJish. :lol:

    But, I've never understood how you can assign a type at all to an entire country. It doesn't make sense. It only depends on your personal, subjective opinion and experience with that country, which can be entirely different from someone elses. I just think its a futile exercise.

    the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

    To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

    (Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)
    I haven't found this to be true at all either. What I have found is that N's tend to listen and get involved in personal discussion way more intimately than S's. S's like some in my family and my room mates, they tend to stay on the surface of issues rather than getting at the heart of things. You know, like disecting the concept that underlines the issues; that's N stuff.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

    The latter I consider obvious, the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

    To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

    (Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)
    Well having introverted a bit before responding, and thus deciding not to bite on what has been bitten on so often before, I'll talk about some of the other bits.

    I do not know if it is fair to say it is obvious that america is more extrovert than Britain, and then imply that the difference is obvious. Why do you think america is more extroverted? Personally I feel she is dangerously intoverted and always has been, an introverted SJ, certain that her way is right, and not prepared to listen to the wider international community or consider that other concepts on life have as much right to co-exist in the world as theirs.

    Where as Britain has always been much more pluarlistic in her approach internationally, and listened or understood others rights to exist, hence why she traditionally had no problems keeping ideology and policy sepperate. I.E extroverted...

    just an alternative idea...
    Everything is about you isn't it Dom?

    All of life is self referential. That makes Victor's statement both true and redundant. A murky but beautiful symmetry.
    no it isn't or I'd be able to make personal decision's much more swiftly and easily (though you could frame this as really still being about me as I'm avoiding feeling guilty but then we are headed into a cyclic disscussion that we were so famous for on intpc years ago!)

  7. #7
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I haven't found that to be true. There are some very introverted places in America you know. Even big ones. I found DC to seem kind of introverted. I found the whole place rather ISTJish. :lol:

    But, I've never understood how you can assign a type at all to an entire country. It doesn't make sense. It only depends on your personal, subjective opinion and experience with that country, which can be entirely different from someone elses. I just think its a futile exercise.
    A couple of defining features which I think underline the difference.

    Sport.
    The NFL is essentially one league versus the micro managed football leagues, cups and tournaments.

    "Issues".
    England's motto is stiff upper lip (ie suck it up and don't complain), the USA has made counselling and therapy part of it's mantra.

    Legalities.
    In England it would be considered premature to go into legal proceedings as quickly as it is done in America.

    International relations.
    America is well known for telling others what they should do where as England is more backwards about coming forwards. Our "voice" is quieter.

    Interpersonal relations.
    American's are known over here for being loud and brash which is often the perception of an extrovert from an introverts eyes.

    It's not really supposed to be "all American's are extroverts" but more that most American's will be more familiar with extroverts than introverts. Hell just look at all the pazzaz that has to be included with every event from opening a shop to voting in a president. Do you see similar things in the UK? Not very often. Even the Queen is practically silent for 99% of the time. The tourist attraction she represents is basically people flocking to look at where she stays and watching the automatons in front of the palace!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I haven't found this to be true at all either. What I have found is that N's tend to listen and get involved in personal discussion way more intimately than S's. S's like some in my family and my room mates, they tend to stay on the surface of issues rather than getting at the heart of things. You know, like disecting the concept that underlines the issues; that's N stuff.
    N's understand you easier, that's not really the same thing. The most attentive listener I know is an INFP. He just listens and chips in when you leave him room to. My sister (one of those famed ENFJ listeners) won't necessarily wait for you to stop and once she's going you have to fight to get back to her listening. I see that as the introvert is the better listener even if my sister interprets better than he does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Well having introverted a bit before responding, and thus deciding not to bite on what has been bitten on so often before, I'll talk about some of the other bits.
    Your nose will end up crooked you know
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I do not know if it is fair to say it is obvious that america is more extrovert than Britain, and then imply that the difference is obvious. Why do you think america is more extroverted? Personally I feel she is dangerously intoverted and always has been, an introverted SJ, certain that her way is right, and not prepared to listen to the wider international community or consider that other concepts on life have as much right to co-exist in the world as theirs.
    And England isn't self righteous in the same vein? You must be joking! How long does it take us to accept a new "fad"?

    We still have thousands of engineers who think that computers are imprecise and "hinky"!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Where as Britain has always been much more pluarlistic in her approach internationally, and listened or understood others rights to exist, hence why she traditionally had no problems keeping ideology and policy sepperate. I.E extroverted...
    What you mean is less forceful. We sit there and declare we disagree but agree to do nothing about it. Combine that with the extreme bureaucracy and what do you get as a type?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    just an alternative idea...
    Accepted. Now I'm going to be rethinking this for days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    no it isn't or I'd be able to make personal decision's much more swiftly and easily (though you could frame this as really still being about me as I'm avoiding feeling guilty but then we are headed into a cyclic disscussion that we were so famous for on intpc years ago!)
    It was a joke on the human condition old boy.

    Chill, I'm not having a go.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Heh. Stuff.
    So as not to derail, new post here

  9. #9
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    And England isn't self righteous in the same vein? You must be joking! How long does it take us to accept a new "fad"?

    We still have thousands of engineers who think that computers are imprecise and "hinky"!!
    Hey, don't project the problems your particular workign environment embodies on to the whole country!!! I am British I do not think computers are imprecise or "hinky" (and I mean that even though I have no idea what "hinky" means lol) so that can't be the whole national persona..


    What you mean is less forceful. We sit there and declare we disagree but agree to do nothing about it. Combine that with the extreme bureaucracy and what do you get as a type?
    Nope I really didn't mean forceful at all, we managed to precide over the largest empire the world has ever seen, i would definately consider that this was only possible through being forceful, we just didn't insist that these areas become mini britain's like the french did their's or Amercia does these days

    Accepted. Now I'm going to be rethinking this for days.
    Hehe all i wanted was to through an alternative out there!

  10. #10
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Are you sure, Xander?

    A session in the House of Commons is sprightly and inspiring.

    A session in the House of Representatives is turgid, boring and -- in theory at least -- damaging to incumbency.

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