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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Are you sure, Xander?

    A session in the House of Commons is sprightly and inspiring.

    A session in the House of Representatives is turgid, boring and -- in theory at least -- damaging to incumbency.
    Okay sprightly as in a bunch of old men moving faster than necessary to catch a stationary object?

    Forgive me, I'm still reeling from the use of the word 'inspiring' in relation to the house of commons. Aside from inspiring me to riot I see little inspiration there but I'll admit perhaps that's just me.

    Right, as to your query I think the answer lies within the behaviour common to ISTJs and ESTJs.

    More obviously there are the styles of dress, the american power suit is something I'd think was more of an appeal to others that they are a mover and a shaker... sort of a "giz a job, I'm ded gud" as opposed to the more english style where everyone is wearing some kind of traditional suit but then where they get personal choice (ie the shirt and tie) you see some of the most god awful combinations.. that'd I'd read as more ISTJ (though I may be biased by my fashion unconscious ISTJ buddy).

    America seems to have more hero worship in politics from my experience of them with the pres being almost deified (even if he's a certifiable idiot... *ahem*) where as our PM is most often shot to pieces by the opposition and his/her own party.

    I believe there are also more remarks about how competitive the nation is as a whole being bandied about in the US as opposed to the UK.

    Of course all of these little notes are quite subjective.. but there again is it not the same situation when typing an individual?

    Basically if you look at what people expect from an American and an Englishman the expectations seem to match up closest to the ESTJ and ISTJ types respectively.

    One thing that this is making me wonder is whether ESTJs object to their type this much..
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Forgive me, I'm still reeling from the use of the word 'inspiring' in relation to the house of commons. Aside from inspiring me to riot I see little inspiration there but I'll admit perhaps that's just me.
    Ah, you're conflating ideological content with manner of delivery.

    I find English policies, to euphemize, generally not to my liking. But the immediate dialectical rigor demanded by MPs is more exciting -- American committee hearings play out like bagpipes, partisan declamations that follow a persistent, uniphonous drone -- and not at all forgiving of reticence. That seems a high valuation of social extroversion.

    with the pres being almost deified
    This is demonstrably not true. Look at opinion polls, then political cartoons, then entertainers, then personally question a sampling of members of the corresponding party. You've either internalized a characterization of America (which might mean introversion, in which case you're right) or have gotten your sense of our country from the German press (in which case I'm right). Certainly, your prime minister defends his policies just meters away from scoffing backbenchers, but then, he is not an autonomous executive.

    In America, there are much more complex dynamics between typical business and social types -- and more places in which these interactions occur than those receiving the most international attention. I nod to the theory you're trying to establish, but the UK and US are in too many ways divergent. Your lot may be provincial; but we're varied across the continent ourselves.

  3. #13
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I too have heard that the "model" type of America is ESTJ.
    And that would make sense. It's very "In Charge" (Interaction Style); aggressive, critical. Yet it is also "Guardian" of its structures.
    Enneagram theeorists say it is type 3-ish. That would seem to be between In Charge and Get Things Going; reflecting our mix of seriousness and hedonism.

    Britain, I don't know. It seems a bit less aggressive, but I'm not sure.

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    The Three-ish thing doesn't sound too far off.

    But ESTJ? Maybe 50 years ago. And in high-profile business, yes. But the last 20 years of so, there's been such an influx of foreign lifestyle/culture (especially South American flavor) that I've been noting a large shift culturally towards SP. Your Gen X / Gen Y's are decisively NOT ESTJ -- especially for Gen Y, there's little planning for the future and control over events, it's all about flexing and riding things out and experiencing the full of life.

    Wait until the Boomers die off and many more Gen Y's hit their 30's and 40's, and it'll be much more noticeable.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah; I imagine it's changing, for a less structure-focused approach.
    Much of the "culture war" is the ESTJ old order "guarding" their institutions.
    I have often wondered what will happen to business and politics when Gen.X/Y reaches the upper levels of management.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yeah; I imagine it's changing, for a less structure-focused approach. Much of the "culture war" is the ESTJ old order "guarding" their institutions.
    Mmm hmmm.

    I have often wondered what will happen to business and politics when Gen.X/Y reaches the upper levels of management.
    Thought of it too. And it scares me.
    (as much as I didn't like rigid SJ thinking.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Wow I can post again!!!

    Jennifer,
    I do agree that on the smaller scales of analysis America is quite SP and in some arenas quite NT even! However the overall trend of the country is more congruent with the ESTJ type.

    Take, for example, the city planning. Who but an ESTJ would design everywhere on a grid system with a "block" being the measurement of everything? The way in which roundabouts are a confusing thing because it means you have to negotiate other road users or how you can turn right when the lights are on red (that may seem intuitive but realistically any decent intuitive person would see that it'd be more helpful to general road use to have a right turn light in addition to the other three). How about the idea of northern connecting roads where to go north you have to travel south to pick up the northern road. An intuitive person would travel north believing that to go north you..err... go north. It'd have to be some kind of dictatorial type.

    I believe that on inspection both styles of city, whether UK or US are STJ, that I'd reckon is in little doubt. The UK does have more history to incorperate, hence how the US can be so mapped out and done systematically. Of course if the system had been done from the start in a more intuitive fashion then the road system shouldn't need this idea of connecting roads and you'd see more ring formations around the city (kind of implemented in the UK but done as and when).

    Anyhow, what part of ESTJ is not liked?
    E - Anyone that would persist in arguing that America is not extroverted is ignoring the huge celebrations of pretty much everything. Plus there's the whole "new york minute" phenomenon.

    S - Most countries scream S at me due to the micro management of things. Intuitive countries seem to move more as one than the S countries, though specific examples that I'm certain of escape me right now.

    T - There could be the argument that the US is F, god knows there's enough emotional stuff coming out of it to drown masses, however I think that the minumum wage being what it is (ie absolute s##) and the huge problem of people below the poverty line kinda says it's less empathic and more 'target' orientated.

    J - There's absolutely no doubt in my mind regarding this facet. Presidents apparently have to be spotless, christian, family men and no deviation from these principles will be tolerated. In fact in many ways tolerance is more of a luxoury than a common thing from what I've seen. That'd I'd see more as an indication of J than P in that the rules are clear and well defined with less room for deviance.

    Oh and crowning glory of ESTJ... the war on terror. The whole crisis reaction where everyone and everything must now come under close scrutiny, despite them knowing that it can't stop determined terrorists, is very ESTJ. That much I am VERY familiar with in my job (more's the pitty). If the same had happened over here there'd be strong statements made and strong measures discussed but I very much doubt that any one would make sweeping changes in the manner in which the US has. That's not to say that action was bad but the actual actions taken have been misguided in several instances and overall only serve to look like the place is secure where as it's just as open as it always was.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Ah, you're conflating ideological content with manner of delivery.

    I find English policies, to euphemize, generally not to my liking. But the immediate dialectical rigor demanded by MPs is more exciting -- American committee hearings play out like bagpipes, partisan declamations that follow a persistent, uniphonous drone -- and not at all forgiving of reticence. That seems a high valuation of social extroversion.
    This I would concurr. UK politics is less about acceptance and more about being right. They are prepared to argue and will fight back properly... mind you isn't that more about the individuals taking part than the country in general?
    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    This is demonstrably not true. Look at opinion polls, then political cartoons, then entertainers, then personally question a sampling of members of the corresponding party. You've either internalized a characterization of America (which might mean introversion, in which case you're right) or have gotten your sense of our country from the German press (in which case I'm right). Certainly, your prime minister defends his policies just meters away from scoffing backbenchers, but then, he is not an autonomous executive.

    In America, there are much more complex dynamics between typical business and social types -- and more places in which these interactions occur than those receiving the most international attention. I nod to the theory you're trying to establish, but the UK and US are in too many ways divergent. Your lot may be provincial; but we're varied across the continent ourselves.
    I beg to differ, it is the states which is provincial in that almost all opinions are based on self referential measures. The US is the measure by which all others are to be judged. I'm sorry but the US has more of a jingoistic attitude than any other nation I can think of.

    As for the president being subjected to question and derision, I thought that all famous actors over there had to suffer the whims of the press?

    The whole thing about the US assuming it is correct in it's approach to life whilst there are so many who suffer under their rules and the manner in which other's are told that they are wrong or will conform. That whole attitude says ESTJ to me.

    Oh and I guess that right about now it will be assumed that I'm anti-american... all I'll say is that would be an incorrect assumption.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oh and I guess that right about now it will be assumed that I'm anti-american... all I'll say is that would be an incorrect assumption.
    Xander loves America! You should wear a t-shirt.

    It's just sort of amusing to have someone in England tell me (who has lived in the States all my life) what my country is like.

    (htb's right in that the US is so large, and with so much "importing" over the years -- influx of other cultural attitudes -- that we don't even have consistent approaches from locale to locale. England is much smaller geographically.)

    I think the ESTJ qualities you're seeing are remnants from 50 years ago. That's where a lot of the modernist, grid-style thinking came from. If you look at modern design and architecture, it's different. Maybe you miss that, because you're not watching the change happen over the years.

    (btw, you don't HAVE to be right. It wasn't a bad supposition, I just don't think it fits the data.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Xander loves America! You should wear a t-shirt.

    It's just sort of amusing to have someone in England tell me (who has lived in the States all my life) what my country is like.

    (htb's right in that the US is so large, and with so much "importing" over the years -- influx of other cultural attitudes -- that we don't even have consistent approaches from locale to locale. England is much smaller geographically.)

    I think the ESTJ qualities you're seeing are remnants from 50 years ago. That's where a lot of the modernist, grid-style thinking came from. If you look at modern design and architecture, it's different. Maybe you miss that, because you're not watching the change happen over the years.

    (btw, you don't HAVE to be right. It wasn't a bad supposition, I just don't think it fits the data.)
    Don't have to be.... .... stupid nonsense.. of course I do... err ... am.

    I do understand that living there may give a totally different perspective to things but also being too close to a subject (be it person or country) would also warp the perspective. In fact I have been warned about trying to type people I know well as I may see more of the shadow and get it all wrong.

    As for the diversity, I think the Australian president said it best when he basically told all imigrants that it was this way before you got here, you wanted to move here so please respect that it will, by and large, stay the same.

    You may well be right that I am typing from assumption and not observation, I may well alter my opinion at some later point but at present I see no real quantity of evidence to type the US as anything other than ESTJ.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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